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1 -  TheRunZone Forum / "Coaching Talk" / Re: question for AP405

Started by wysiwyg - Last post by Tinman on: Today at 07:57:36 AM

Actually, I do think the effect of mileage can be measured in the lab, as well as in the field; it's called time at intensity (well, at least that's what I call it). How long you can hold a given intensity is probably the most profound effect of mileage, once total weekly volume exceeds about 6 or 7 hours. Joe reaches a Vo2 max of 70 mls.kg.minute at 7 hours per week (for him, that's about 60-65 miles per week), and he "LT2" may be around 5:39 per mile.  If he bumps his mileage to 75-80 per week, his VO2 max stays the same. His sustainable Vo2 max lengthens however, as well as his time at other intensities. Thus, prior to a bump in mileage he could hold 5:15 pace for 15 minutes, but after training he can hold that same pace for 20 minutes, or he can run 5:11 per mile for 15 minutes (and his LT2 may be around 5:35 per mile. If Joe progresses to 100 miles per week over the following year, he will likely stay at 70 for a Vo2 max, his LT2 may stay around 5:34 per mile, but how long he can run at either 5:11 or 5:34 will increase. In all likelihood, the time at 5:34 will extend far more than how long he can hold 5:11 pace. Thus, his 5km time may stall-out, but his half-marathon and marathon times will lower, which means the average pace he holds in long races is improved (less time per unit-distance).
Tinman

2 -  TheRunZone Forum / "Coaching Talk" / Re: question for AP405

Started by wysiwyg - Last post by wysiwyg on: Today at 07:12:56 AM

Thankyou Tinman and AP405 for your lengthy replies. It seems the answer for joe bloggs is maybe,maybe not.and if it does work its very difficult to pin point the reason why it worked when all of the scientifically measurable (lab) parameters of exercise science show no reason why it should...theres something missing that we cant quantify... a bit like the anti matter in physics that they are trying to find with that collider gizmo contraption in switzerland-the magic part?about the recovery aspect of training stress balance, its interesting that as its not a question of how much training you can do but how much you can recover from that leads to performance you dont get athletes saying "i ran 2h hours every day last week and managed to squeeze in 45 minutes power nap in the afternoons" much more likely to hear "I ran 2 hours every day last week, i had to get outta bed an hour early to do it."The former comment doesnt carry many macho points!

3 -  TheRunZone Forum / "Coaching Talk" / Re: 4 weeks til 10K

Started by oro - Last post by oro on: Today at 05:06:53 AM

Thanks for the cool advice Timmins!   I'll try to spare my efforts for as long as possible but sure that last mile will be fast!  8)

4 -  TheRunZone Forum / "Coaching Talk" / Re: question for AP405

Started by wysiwyg - Last post by Tinman on: September 07, 2010, 09:54:20 PM

Quick story:

A friend of mine ran for UW-La Crosse too. When I was at school, he was a pre-physical therapy student. That meant he was taking every hard course available at UWL, chemistries, physics, you name it - the same as pre-med students. He was burning the midnight oil studying. He rarely got more than 6 hours sleep. He was a decent runner, but nothing special while I was coaching him. He constantly asked me how much training he needed to do to get better, and I told him he was doing enough training, he just needed more sleep. Anyway, a couple of years later I went to the D3 national championships for cross-country, and my friend ran well and earned All-America status; a good accomplishment. He was substantially faster and stronger compared to when I coached him at UWL, when I was a graduate assitant. I asked my friend how much he was training, and he sheepishly said, same as when you coached me - about 60-70 miles per week; the same week after week. Hmm, I said to him, what do you think is the big difference (he dropped a minute and a half on his 8km time). He dropped his head and he said, "Coach, I can't lie, I get more sleep - about 8 to 8 and half hours a night now."

5 -  TheRunZone Forum / "Coaching Talk" / Re: question for AP405

Started by wysiwyg - Last post by Tinman on: September 07, 2010, 09:44:46 PM

I think the bigger factors for people in America not progressing, when there seems plausible room for improvement, relates to the following problems (just a quick list):

(1) Not getting enough sleep;

(2) Not eating enough complex carbohydrates spaced throughout the day;

(3) Not consuming enough fluids regularly;

(4) Not managing stress from work, family, etc. well;

(5) Not running enough on soft surfaces.
The big difference between the African and American runners, I think, has less to do with genetics and far more to do with stress. How many American 1:08 half-marathon runners would drop 3-5 minutes if they didn' have to work, could take 2-3 hour naps every day, and have dirt roads or trails to run on every day?  My bet is a lot - probably hundreds.
Remember, improved athletic performance has two needs: training and recovering. Better recovery allows better training, which improves performance.

6 -  TheRunZone Forum / "Coaching Talk" / Re: question for AP405

Started by wysiwyg - Last post by ap4305 on: September 07, 2010, 05:52:05 PM

Hi Ap405,
 
joe bloggs runs 70mpw for 2 years with 2 tinman sessions per week he runs 70 minute half marathon...joe wants to be great so bumps it up to 110 (not injured) with sessions as before,races terribly for 3 months but then runs 68 mins for a half in month 4 of high mileage, he continues to log 110 for the next 2 years and can still only manage 68 mins,so has he reaped all the benefits hes going to or is there more to come?And if there is what actually goes on physiologically over this long period of time?


Hard to predict where someone's max potential is, but I see what you are getting at with the spirit of the question.  Essentially, "we know that high mileage is supposed to work, so how do we confirm that it is working (or isn't working)?"  The science tells us that increased mileage will lead to, among other things, mitochondrial density, increased capillarization, and improved substrate utilization balance.   However, the science will also tell us that "You can't PROVE that it is the high mileage" and not something else responsible for these improvements. 

So what sorts of conclusions can we make?  I would say the benefits of higher mileage are indirect and possibly immeasurable (given our current analytical technology) once you get over the 70-80 mile per week range.  Based a sample size of n > 1,000,000 in an ongoing field study conducted by countless coaches and athletes, we know that higher mileage (when achieved through a sensible progression) tends to fortify the health of our connective tissue, in part through the release of growth hormone.  The more healthy we are structurally, the more consistently we can train.  Of course, there is the caveat that the mileage must be applied in a sensible manner with an appropriate blend of intensity.  Let's not forget one of Tinman's guidelines: Run around 80-85 pct of your maximum load tolerance so you can effectively integrate all the training elements (endurance, stamina, speed) to achieve the proper balance.  That max level can continue to increase, but if you stay around that 80-85 pct level, you won't even think of high mileage as being "high" because you will have found a "sweet spot" where the mileage is appropriate to support all the elements of your training.       

In terms of when to "call it off" regarding a foray into high mileage, I would posit that if higher mileage isn't working, then either the progression has been too rapid or certain lifestyle factors are present that interfere with its effectiveness.  Going from 70 to 100 in a few months is much different than running 90 for years and then bumping up to 100.  Nevertheless, even with a sensible progression, as your mileage increases beyond 70-80-90, etc, you walk a much finer line with fatigue and injury.  If things break down, is it the mileage that is too high, or is the support infrastructure not in place?  Dr. Vigil had a great line for his athletes when he coached the squad at Mammoth Lakes: "We have you set up in an ideal situation here...If you get sick, it is your own fault."  In the "real world", most people don't have this type of support network, but if we want high mileage to work it doesn't relieve us of the responsibility to make sure we are doing everything we can in terms of recovery, sleep, and nutrition.   

One area that doesn't get as much attention as it should in the endurance sport world is the adaptability of the nervous system and the endocrine system.  Over the long term, quite simply, the more we run the habituated we become to the activity.  In terms of biochemical adaptations within these systems, Dr. Daniels has conducted some studies (not published, to the best of my knowledge) where his lab tested catecholamine levels in elite runners and found that elite runners had similar levels after easy ten mile runs as non-athletes had while at rest.  In other words, an easy run did not arouse the "fight or flight" mechanisms in these athletes that we would expect to see after physical exertion.   

While this finding alone would not justify higher mileage (after all, maybe the elite runners got really fit for reasons totally unrelated to mileage?), it does lend credence to the idea that as we become more efficient at the activity, the less taxing it becomes even if the difference in stress level is imperceptible.  As a restorative tool, easy running can help promote a return to a more parasympathetic state (i.e. relaxed) so that we are more prepared for our next hard workout or race (and of course, more resistant to any health related setbacks).  Again, these may not be short term adaptations, but over time, as mechanical efficiency and soft tissue quality improves so should our body's ability to regulate itself hormonally. 

People tend scoff at some of the luxuries that Nike has invested into Salazar's squad, but tissue quality plays an important role in promoting overall training health.  Sprint and field coaches/athletes as a whole have been ahead of the curve as compared to distance running, as those of us in the distance community tended to think only in quantifiable terms of vo2 max and thresholds and reserved our consideration of structural health only when things start to hurt.  It might be counterintuitive on the surface to think that running more miles will help you recover better, but if you look closer, the nexus between higher mileage, mechanical efficiency, soft tissue quality, and neuroendocrine health is strong. 

On one of the other threads, Carson (another Tinman athlete) had commented (in a good way) that there seemed to be no discernable pattern in how his plan was laid out.  There's good reason behind that.  The body as an organism is far too complex to be regulated by a cut and paste training plan.  Optimum performance is about taking all of the key training elements and blending them into a recipe with the right ingredients.  For this reason, I don't think we can look at mileage as a number or even in terms of "high" or "medium" or "low."  Mileage is a critical part of the training blend for the role it plays in regulating our body as a complete system.

7 -  TheRunZone Forum / "Coaching Talk" / question for AP405

Started by wysiwyg - Last post by wysiwyg on: September 07, 2010, 01:25:15 PM

Hi Ap405,
 
You mention on another thread with regard to Timmins ( by the way timmins your doing great,and im sure your form will come around) about the real pay off in terms of heavy mileage will come when he can do 100mile per week plus very easily 3-7 years down the line,barring injuries of course, i was just wondering is this really how long an athlete has to try high mileage for before they can know if its appropriate/working for them...i mean we all know great runners run alot, but alot is between 70-150 mpw.im not explaining myself very well, ill try an example..joe bloggs runs 70mpw for 2 years with 2 tinman sessions per week he runs 70 minute half marathon...joe wants to be great so bumps it up to 110 (not injured) with sessions as before,races terribly for 3 months but then runs 68 mins for a half in month 4 of high mileage, he continues to log 110 for the next 2 years and can still only manage 68 mins,so has he reaped all the benefits hes going to or is there more to come?And if there is what actually goes on physiologically over this long period of time?thankyou for all your contributions.


8 -  TheRunZone Forum / "Coaching Talk" / Re: 4 weeks til 10K

Started by oro - Last post by ATimmins on: September 07, 2010, 11:52:05 AM

3 hrs is in the bag.  If you never have broken 3 before or even came close, i say run 3 hour pace until 30k or 20 miles, hell, even 22 miles.  Nothing feels better then being on pace at 22 then slowly dropping the hammer. Heck, run 3:00 pace for 25.2 miles then see what you can drop a mile in.  It would be funny to see 6:52 for that long then a 6:10.  Just get under 3 and enjoy it, don't get greedy, 3 is a huge accomplishment and there is always more races!

9 -  TheRunZone Forum / "Masters Talk" / Re: Returning to Running after meniscus surgery

Started by newredsun - Last post by Ron on: September 07, 2010, 10:33:18 AM

Funny this post has been rekindled.....well not really that funny.
I just went through a medial meniscectomy on Friday and am dealing with the pain and swelling right now.
It has only been 4-days since the surgery and I am already going a bit nutty.
I hope to start with some light activity next week.

10 -  TheRunZone Forum / "Training Talk" / Re: Calf size

Started by Pammie - Last post by Pammie on: September 07, 2010, 04:22:52 AM

Thanks for the reply Tinman

I don't do any work specifically on my calfs i guess they are what they are. Nice to think of them as Gifts

Wellpark my quads are a bit bulky as well

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