Author Topic: York High School  (Read 6152 times)

Jeff_D

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York High School
« on: August 19, 2009, 10:25:14 PM »
So i recently picked up an old Joe Newton book called Coaching Cross Country Successfully and was suprised by the quantity of quality (pardon the phrase) but they run Hard or long six days a week. Here are a few sample weeks...
This is what their varsity 7 ran and the workout days include 3 mile shake outs and about 6 miles of warm ups and cool downs plus 6x100m before the workout then 10-20x 100m after:

Week 1:
MOnday: 23 in doubles
Tuesday: 24/doubles
Wednesday: 25 x 400m (1 min jogs)
Thursday: 10-10-5-5-5-4-4-2 segments
Friday: 1 hour fartlek
Saturday: 1 hour segement run...all 1-5s
Sunday: 15 miles long run (slow)

Week 12:
(final week)
Monday: 1 mile TT, 10 mins recovery 1 mile fast
Tuesday: 2x 5x 200m (45 jogs for first set then 45, 30, 15)
Wednesday: 45-30-15 mins runs (Ez day)
Thursday: 3 x400m fast (62-60-56) with 3 mins jog
Friday: 6 x200m (200 jogs)
Saturday: STATE MEET!

So my real question is Why so much intensity? and is this still common at York today? (book was written in '95) This seems like a huge quantity of running especially for guys running 80 miles a week.  Although they said they cut back a lot for the final two weeks. Has anyone every coached/trained like this and what were your results if so? Also i just thought it was interesting stuff to share.

Take care!

Jeff

Tinman

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« Reply #1 on: August 20, 2009, 12:09:24 AM »
Jeff -

Joe's runners cover more than 80 miles per week; I guarantee it!  In fact, 80 miles per week would be considered a modest or somewhat light week of training for York's varsity XC runners. Typically his runners start with  84 miles the first week in June and build up from there. They have a week of camp in August that goes around 120-130 miles. The norm is closer to 100-110 miles per week. That mileage has been the staple of York's running since the 1960's. Even guys who can only run 17:00 for 3 miles are often pushing 100 miles per week by their 3rd year of running for York.


Yes, they do a lot of quality running, too! In fact, 25 x 400m is a common Monday workout for the Dukes, and it has been for nearly 40 years. In the old days, York boys ran hundreds of 110  yard striders per week; literally.

York has about 120 to 150 runners every year turn out for cross-country. The tradition is so strong that kids in elementary school already are excited to run for the Dukes.  The junior high program and the summer program is a feeder for the high school program, by the way. There are so many runners on the team that practice is on a time-schedule of shifts. Yes, shifts! Not everybody trains at the same time. Group 1 may workout at 2:30pm. Group 2 at 2:45. Group 3 at 3:00, for example.

Several of York's runners are coach's in the Chicagoland area, and so the tradition of lots of mileage with lots of quality pervades the region. Hoffman Estates Conant, for example,  has a York High Schoool graduate, from many years ago, making his guys run only 80-90 miles per week.

There have been several outstanding high school coaches in IL, over the years. Don Slota, from Chicago Heights - Bloom Trails - had one of the best teams  in US history, in the early 1970s. Actually, two years in a row they were crazy fast (top 5 were about 14:30's average for 3 miles XC). Len Kisellus had a great team in 1977. Many times York put 5 runners under 15 minutes for 3 miles, often with 2-3 under 14:40. Their top runner was an 8:44 guy for 3200m and nearly broke 4 flat in the mile.

York, I think, has won 4 titles, since 1962, under Joe Newton coaching.
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Tinman

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« Reply #2 on: August 20, 2009, 12:15:09 AM »
http://www.ihsa.org/activity/ccb/records/team1-2.htm

The Greatest Distance Coaches in Illinois History

Coach School Reason
1. Joe Newton York H.S. The Best of The Best
2. Al Carius North Central College Numerous NCAA Champs
3. Ernie Eveland Paris H.S. The George Washington of state distance
4. Jim Nagel Wheeling H.S. First Girls Champ + more
5. Roger Fredrickson Winnebago H.S. King of Class A
6. Pat O’Brien Eastern Illinois NCAA Champ x II
7. Jim Macnider Schaumburg H.S. Multi State Champs & 2nds to York
8. Brett Charlton Eureka H.S. Kicking Butt in Class A
9. Steve Currins Palatine H.S. Has his share of titles
10. Tom Meyers Elmwood H.S. Many Champ Teams
11. Max Armer Lyons Township H.S. A coaching Legend
12. Harold Monilaw Proviso Township H.S. Championships in the 50’s
13. Bruce Ritter Downers Grove North Many Great teams & Runners
14. Leonard Jareczek Lane Tech Double figure top 10 teams
15. Len Kisellus Deerfield H.S. Great distance in the 70’s
16. Don Slota Bloom H.S. Great teams of the 70’s
17. Carl Appell Northern Illinois CC NCAA Champ
18. Lew Hartzog Southern Illinois A coaching legion
19. Jim Acklin St Joseph Ogden H.S. Won both boys & girls titles
20. Scott Stephens Hercher H.S. 3 Class A girls titles
21. Roy Gummerson Peoria Woodruff/Oak Park A Funny Man & Legion
23. Jim Brauer PORTA H.S. Both Boys & Girls Championships
24. Mike Sullivan Bergan H.S. Multi CC Champ 80’s
25. Jon Macnider Schaumburg H.S. Multi Champ & great runners
26. C.A.R. Johnson Glenbard West Always 2nd or Better at State
27. Tom Woodall Eastern Illinois NCAA Champ 1977
28. Tom Roderick St Charles H.S. Outstanding girls & boy distance
29. Jim Nelson Evanston H.S. A distance Pioneer
30. **** Mc Calister Proviso West Coached studs in the 60’s
29. Larry Bassett York H.S. Many top finishes
30. Neal Schmelzel Alton H.S. Over 10 top 10 finishes
31. Lester Hampton Normal U-High H.S. Great boys and girls teams
32. Larry Thompson Lockport H.S. Mid 90’s distance AWESOME
32. Pat Gleason Palatine H.S. Teams & Individuals in the 80’s
33. Dan Iverson Naperville North One of the Top coaches today
34. Ira Price Lebanon H.S. Great teams and Individuals in 70’s
35. Gene Armer Urbana H.S. Many top 10 finishes
36. Ron Menely Fremd H.S. Great coach of the 60’s & 70’s
37. Larry Eddington Kaneland H.S. Greats teams in the 80’s
38. Jim Arnold Glenbard West H.S. Great teams & great milers
39. Al Logsdon Lincoln Way H.S. The Dave’s Merrick & Walters
40. Marty Bee Naperville North A Champ & a ton of All State
41. Sue Pariseau Glenbard West Distance greats in track
43. Ben Almaguer New Trier H.S. All top 5 finishes
44. Andy Preuss Glenbard South Team & Individual Champs
45. Mike Johnson Porta H.S. Many top ten teams
46. Scott Nelson St Francis H.S. Always great CC & track teams
47. Mark Saylor Wheeling H.S. Has coached some studs
48. Roger Beals Crisman H.S. Many great teams
49. Brad Seago Guilford H.S. The most seconds to York
50. George Cyr Naperville Central A lot of top 10’s
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BoilerTom90

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« Reply #3 on: August 21, 2009, 12:05:11 PM »
I'm curious how many of York's runners go on and do well in college, and beyond?
How many still enjoy running after HS, or college?

With that many runners on the team, it's no wonder they can ALWAYS find a top 5 to 7 that are very good and can handle that volume of training. I'm tired just thinking about it.

When I was in HS in Indiana, there was a coach that always produced great teams/runners.  He really worked his runners hard, similar to Newton, but he didn't have the quantity of runners to "pick from". The think is, very few of them enjoyed running after HS. I recall one runner that was a 14:00 5K guy, and low 4:00 in the 1600.  He went to Purdue for engineering but was NOT interested in running in college. He told me he was burned out.  Other runners told me the same thing.

ap4305

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« Reply #4 on: August 21, 2009, 12:42:55 PM »
Quote from: BoilerTom90;8149
I'm curious how many of York's runners go on and do well in college, and beyond?
How many still enjoy running after HS, or college?

With that many runners on the team, it's no wonder they can ALWAYS find a top 5 to 7 that are very good and can handle that volume of training. I'm tired just thinking about it.



Regarding the first point, I was wondering the same thing.  If you are talking about "doing well" just with respect to running, I would suspect the individual results fall well short of what Newton's teams as a whole accomplish.   If "doing well" means succeding in life as a whole, then I would suspect that York runners historically excel in whatever their chosen field may be.  However, I suspect that unless the runner has a the ability to run for a championship caliber team (at any level, whether D-I, II, or III), running for a college team that is part drinking club would be a major letdown from running for a dynasty for an enitre high school career.  

I'm not so sure that it is just a matter of attracting vast numbers of runners that allows York to find 5-7 on a team of 150-200 who can handle the training program.  If it was just a matter of gathering a big enough runner population, you'd expect to see 5-7 out of every 200 runners out there who could train like that.  York schedules are no secret, so anyone could copy them if they had the desire to.  Clearly there is something in the way the schedule is applied that allows them to succeed.

It does speak volumes that a high school coach can get picked to be on the US Olympic team staff (Newton was part of the 1988 coaching staff).  Big Division-I college coaches and USATF poobahs are a clique-ish and insular group who tend to look down on "measly" high school coaches.  It speaks volumes as to the level of respect that Newton has in the track community that he as a HS coach could break into that "special" club of the USATF hierarchy.

road dog

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York High School
« Reply #5 on: August 21, 2009, 06:26:08 PM »
Quote from: BoilerTom90;8149
I'm curious how many of York's runners go on and do well in college, and beyond?
How many still enjoy running after HS, or college?

With that many runners on the team, it's no wonder they can ALWAYS find a top 5 to 7 that are very good and can handle that volume of training. I'm tired just thinking about it.

When I was in HS in Indiana, there was a coach that always produced great teams/runners.  He really worked his runners hard, similar to Newton, but he didn't have the quantity of runners to "pick from". The think is, very few of them enjoyed running after HS. I recall one runner that was a 14:00 5K guy, and low 4:00 in the 1600.  He went to Purdue for engineering but was NOT interested in running in college. He told me he was burned out.  Other runners told me the same thing.


Survival of the fittest.  In CT where I reside, Xavier in Middletown use to require a student to participate in a sport.  Cross-country was a big draw, and 100+ runners would come out for the team.  Their former coach use to give everyone the same workouts, mileage, hence 5-7 runners would survive.  It was a rarity to see a runner go on to run in college (forget running after college).  

-road dog

Jeff_D

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York High School
« Reply #6 on: August 24, 2009, 07:37:25 PM »
I have a tendency to disagree with the idea that this "burns them out". At York Cross Country is the BIGGEST running season...They run indoor and the summer like a huge base....Running 1000 mile summers and winters and then the spring build up doesnt have as much emphasis or intensity.

As Im sure tinman will tell you, you can run high intensity/race every week for a period of time and not burn out or get injured. For the most intense weeks of the season they cut back some of the mileage (seems like they cut long run from what i see) and scale it back a lot for the final two weeks. (probably down to 70 a week) What i posted was just what the VARSITY team runs. The scrubs all run a modified version of this. Obviously some 17:00 3 milers will be willing to do the work and run this much but most will be content to run 70-80 a week and scale back the intensity some. (not to bash those runners)

I think that the reason why it seems like the runners burn out is for a few reasons...The first is that only a very few elite/hard working runners will go on to become big stars and run big times. Only about 1 in 100 runners and they are normally the top studs...the ones like German and Rupp. So in a school where they generate five 9:30 guys a year at best one goes on to become a 14:15 guy. Also, the York runners take a big step down when they go to college at places where they run far less mileage and intensity and the environment isnt the same. At York its a big family. You live and breathe Cross Country, they are the people you spend what little free time you have with. They have such amazing synergy that Im guessing its hard to get motivated when they go to college and its not the same.

I also have a question for Tinman about Workouts after races and Time Trials. For example, the York guys will run a 3 mile TT and then take 15 mins then run 2 x mile fast with 4 mins rest. Is this a good idea and have you ever experimented with it? I was just wondering what your take on it was because i was considering experimenting with it during my outdoor season especially when my coach gives us time trials for the 4 x 800m and to see who goes to the bigger meets

Sorry for the rambling post
« Last Edit: August 24, 2009, 07:44:23 PM by Jeff_D »

Tinman

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« Reply #7 on: August 24, 2009, 09:13:56 PM »
Jeff -

Joe Newton started doing the hard time trial over 2 or 3 miles and then 2-3 x 1 mile reps afterward after he met Joe Vigil, who used such a method once each season to  round his runners into top form.

I believe a better approach is doing a tempo run after repeat miles or a race. When I was a high school runner; I ran one mile after a race easy and then pushed hard for 2 or 3 miles what I now call Tempo pace. The only thing is, the effort was  much harder than Tempo pace because I was tired from a race (like 3 miles XC).  I believe it was the best possible conditioner I've ever used.  To do it, though, requires one to keep weekly mileage fairly high. A runner  who  slacks and doesn't run mileage will not be able to handle a tempo run after a 3 mile XC race or 3200m track race. As soon as mileage is elevated the capacity to run tempos after races improves dramatically. That's what mileage does; helps a runner go further at a given effort or pace.
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Jeff_D

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York High School
« Reply #8 on: August 26, 2009, 01:39:49 PM »
Tinman,

What kind of mileage is neccessary to run these Tinman Tempos post race? Is 85 a week enough? Also, what time of season should these be run? Is it okay to run them in Cross Country, Indoor and Outdoor? or Just Outdoor when i plan to peak for Sectionals? And would this be a good way to do these:

3 mile warm up with striders
1600 or 3200 or 5000 race
1 mile easy
2  mile Tinman Tempo
striders
2 easy cool down
Total: 12 with striders

Tinman

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« Reply #9 on: August 26, 2009, 11:34:04 PM »
Jeff -

Anything under 45 minutes of running per day (average) is too little, in my opinion, to run tempos following races or hard intervals. I prefer 1 hour of running or more, to be frank.
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York Article
« Reply #10 on: August 27, 2009, 07:05:31 AM »
Very interesting read on dyestat about Joe Newton and the York program.  Maybe someone else can post the link as I was unable to do so.

Jeff_D

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York High School
« Reply #11 on: August 27, 2009, 09:28:39 AM »
http://www.dyestat.com/?pg=us-Misc-Features-McCue-Features-Things-Ive-Learned-Newton

check that link out....he also talks about how he doesnt really burn the runners out. His prime example is Marrius Bakken who ran in two olympics. I'd say he wasnt burned out if he ran his best post collegiately. It just seems like a lot to run 20 110s every other day and 120 miles a week with high intensity. Its really a great read and I think ALL coaches not just CC coaches should read this...It says a lot about how to make a group of kids movitated to work hard.

road dog

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York High School
« Reply #12 on: August 27, 2009, 10:55:44 PM »
Quote from: Jeff_D;8161
http://www.dyestat.com/?pg=us-Misc-Features-McCue-Features-Things-Ive-Learned-Newton

check that link out....he also talks about how he doesnt really burn the runners out. His prime example is Marrius Bakken who ran in two olympics. I'd say he wasnt burned out if he ran his best post collegiately. It just seems like a lot to run 20 110s every other day and 120 miles a week with high intensity. Its really a great read and I think ALL coaches not just CC coaches should read this...It says a lot about how to make a group of kids movitated to work hard.


Didn't Bakken only run 1-year for Newton?

-road dog

 




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