Author Topic: help with marathon training programs  (Read 1225 times)

jacko

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help with marathon training programs
« on: December 13, 2009, 02:28:41 PM »
hi every one .

this is m y first post on here so be gentle with me,

here goes ,

ive run 3 maras times are
3.04.xx at amsterdam
 3.03.xxat edinburgh
and this year
 3.02.xx at london
 
this year my monthly mileage for london in april was
jan 236
feb249
mar227
apr86
with on avg 1 long run 16+
1or2 speed sessions
then rest easy runs
 per week

can anybody point me to anywere where i can digest training plans and then make my own maybe i can pick up something that will give me the edge and hopefully break 3 hours

many thanks in advance

ps i can send my training to anybody via excel

cheers jacko

ap4305

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help with marathon training programs
« Reply #1 on: December 14, 2009, 05:49:03 PM »
Welcome to the site.  We may be able to help you more effectively if you can provide a two week sample block of training as well as post some of your shorter distance PRs and running history.  If you want to provide more information, then all the better.  If you are looking for a training plan template, you can find a marathon specific plan written by Tinman on the front page of this website.

jacko

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help with marathon training programs
« Reply #2 on: December 15, 2009, 06:20:45 AM »
hi

this is a typical 2 week training log when in training for marathon over the weeks build up long runs from 16 to 22 then after 22mile drop back to 16.
i also do doubles aswell so might do 3-4 mile v easy am then normal session pm

pb's are 5k  19:02
              5M  30:44
              10k38:36
              10M1:03:33
              Half1:22:33
              Mara3:02:24  

week 1
sun    long easy run 16-22 miles
mon    4 mile recovery run
tues   1hrs hill / speed work
weds    club run 8miles easy
thurs     4mile very easy or rest day
fri       6-10 mile @ mara pace
sat     4 mile recovery run

week 2
sun  long easy run 16-22 miles
mon 4 mile recovery run
tue  speed work
wed club run 8 miles easy
thurs rest day
fri 4 mile easy
sat 10-13 miles @ mara pace

ap4305

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help with marathon training programs
« Reply #3 on: December 16, 2009, 06:11:36 PM »
First of all, other than your half marathon (which seems really fast, relatively speaking) and your 5k (which is a bit slow in relation), your shorter times line up reasonably well to your marathon. Since you don't have a major drop-off all of your shorter times as compared to your marathon, you can focus on overall running fitness for much of the year, rather than marathon fitness exclusively.  

For your marathon training, I'd consider adopting Tinman's "Two Big Days" approach for at least some of your weeks.  You could incorporate this strategy by combining the marathon paced workouts with your long runs and by adding more distance to your speed days.  If you are set on doing your club run on Wednesdays, you may have to shift some things around so that you don't have a quick turnaround from a quality long run on Sunday to another hard and long workout on Tuesday.  Big Days incorporating quality running is perhaps the most specific marathon training that you can do.  

It is good that you are doing marathon paced runs, but 10-13 miles on a regular basis is quite a heavy load for a three hour runner.  If you are going to do that much volume at one time, I would either a) break them up into interval form (i.e. 5 x 2miles) or b) give yourself a range up to marathon pace plus 10-30 seconds per mile.  Additionally, you could also incorporate some half marathon paced repeats (i.e. 5 x mile) into a rotation with your marathon paced running.  

You didn't mention specifically what "speed work" you are doing, but a good benchmark speed session for a three hour marathoner is 5-6 x 1k with 200m jog at roughly 10k pace, followed by about 400-600m worth of 100m-200m strides at about 3k pace.

jacko

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help with marathon training programs
« Reply #4 on: December 17, 2009, 10:08:34 AM »
many thanks will post reply next week as just going to amsterdam for the weekend.

jacko

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help with marathon training programs
« Reply #5 on: December 23, 2009, 06:11:17 AM »
hello AP4305

right here goes a few questions

1. my best avg for mara is 6.58mm so what pace should i realisticly aim for in my mara pace training .

2.  by 2 big days a week do you mean this
8 miles EZ, including easy striders, then 6 x 1 mile or 3 x 2 miles at HMP, jogging 1 minute per mile for recovery.  2 miles EZ to cool down, including short, quick striders for “speed.”

3. this would be a sample of my speed work

warm up
8x strides
4x 2min @10k w 1 min rec
8 x 30s @ 3k w 30s rec
5 min jog rec
2 x 0.78mile loop @ 5k
cool down jog

or

warm up
8 x  strides
4 x 1 min with 1 min rec
4 x 150m @ 10k return sprint back with recoveries of 1min 45 s 30 s
1 mile hilly loop
2 short hill sprints
1 long hill sprint
warm down
stretches

4. my aim is for london on 25/4/10 so 4 months to go, so i aim to kick start my training by starting on boxing day by doing a local 10k race to assess my  level of fitness , so still struggling on how best set out a training plan for me to follow  

many thanks if you can help

jacko

ap4305

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Re: help with marathon training programs
« Reply #6 on: December 23, 2009, 04:29:05 PM »
1, 4.  I have seen people drop from 3 hour fitness to sub 2:50 fitness during an effective marathon buildup.  With London being a fast course, you have the potential for significant improvement.  For now, though, you should base your training paces on the current baseline fitness indicated by your upcoming 10k race.  If you periodically race or time trial in the 5k-half marathon range, those times will provide a gauge as to what marathon fitness you can expect at London.  The basics of your training plan will be identical regardless of where on the 2:50-3:05 spectrum you fall.  The paces should evolve over the coming months, but the actual workouts will be the same (provided you begin your buildup with decent fitness and aren't coming off a big hiatus).

As far as structuring your training on a big picture level, I would focus on 10k thru half marathon fitness for the next 6-8 weeks before a transition into a marathon focus.  Once in marathon training, the structure becomes quite simple: two Big Workouts per week until about two weeks before the race and then begin a light taper by keeping your mileage relatively steady but cutting back your intensity.

2.  Yes, you have the right idea regarding Big Workouts.  Note that you can make a Big Workout out of any quality day by adding mileage to the warm up and/or cool down or by adding a second run for the day.  Additionally, if you go on a regular easy long run that can also count as one of your Big Workouts for the seven day week.  You might then have a two week Big Workout rotation of
 
Week 1: a) 5 x mile at HMP within 2 hour run; b) easy 2:15 run
Week 2: a) 4miles-3miles-2miles-1mile at marathon pace within two hour run; b) Two hour run including 6 x 3 minutes at CV pace + 4 x 200m at 3k pace


3.  I don't see anything terribly wrong with those speed sessions you have posted, but I would ask what you are trying to accomplish during those sessions?  The Combo workouts that you are doing (mix of hills, sprints, extended intervals) are perfectly fine, as is the relatively unstructured nature of the workout (which can teach you to read your body in response to different stimuli), but I think you can probably be more efficient with some refinements, and that can begin by defining what you seek to accomplish with the particular workout. 

A bread-and-butter speed workout for anything in the 5k-marathon range is what we call CV (Critical Velocity) intervals.  Once you get your 10k pace established, you can run about 3-4 miles worth of 800m-1200m reps close to that 10k pace with about 200-400m jog recoveries.  After the main set you can add some strides (about 600-800m total) at 3k pace or faster.  You can do CV reps every week during early base training, though as the marathon gets closer you might drop to two weeks out of every three and then ultimately once every other week during the peaking phase. 

For faster work (3k-5k pace), you can continue with a similar theme to what you have been doing, though within the workout I would work slower paces before faster paces and hills before flat speed.  Thus, you might do a fartlek session of 4 x 2min at 10k, 4 x 1 min at 5k, 4 x 30 sec at 3k.  For hills, you could do 10 x 100m (short hills) followed by 10 x 100m strides, followed by 10 x 50 sprints. 

jacko

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Re: help with marathon training programs
« Reply #7 on: December 29, 2009, 07:20:25 AM »
many thanks ap4305

when focusing on 10k work for first 6-8 weeks how many speed work sessions would you recommend in a weeks plan i would train 6 days and 1 rest day with sunday as my long run day and fill in with easy runs to push up mileage.

then after 6-8weeks concentrate on mara work by doing 2 bigworkout in the week would you still do a 10k speed session or just do easy long runs to maintain high mileage before begin 2 week taper

cheers jacko

ap4305

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Re: help with marathon training programs
« Reply #8 on: December 29, 2009, 01:18:59 PM »
Below a simple version of how you can approach your 10k-half marathon training to precede a marathon focus.  You can certainly mix and match the workouts to suit your own needs, but this should give you an idea of the key points to hit and an idea of how you can integrate the workouts.  In general, if you keep each individual quality workout manageable both in pace and in volume, you should be able to handle four to five quality days during a fourteen day cycle. 

Once you move into marathon training, you can (and should) include some 10k paced running in the plan.  A CV/10k workout of 800m-1200m reps is useful for all distances from the mile through the marathon.  The real differences between 10k training and marathon training in the use of 10k running would be in the frequency and the volume of the 10k work.  Whereas you could potentially do 10k/CV paced training every week during 10k-half marathon buildups, you might include 10k/CV training once every two or three weeks during a marathon focus.  Also, if you buildup to 7k of 10k/CV volume before a 10k, you might do only 5-6k during marathon training to accommodate the load of the long marathon paced workouts.  Additionally, you can also integrate 10k training into your marathon long runs.  One of my favorite long run workouts given by Tinman was a two hour long run including multiple two mile sets of [0.5 mile at 10k effort + 1.5 miles steady]. 

Week 1 key workouts
a) Half marathon paced reps (4-6 x mile with 90 seconds rest + 4-6 x 20-30 seconds strides or equivalent distance)
b) CV reps (5-6 x 1k with 200m jog + strides)
c) Easy long run

Week 2 key workouts
a) Tinman tempo run (4-6 miles around current marathon pace) + short hill charges
b) 3k-5k paced short reps or fartlek or combo workout integrating short reps and hills
c) Long run with OPTIONAL light fartlek or 10-15 minutes marathon pace at the end if feeling good.

jacko

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Re: help with marathon training programs
« Reply #9 on: January 27, 2010, 10:23:24 AM »
another question please

for long runs and recovery runs at an easy pace im doing them at  about 8mm
is this too slow or too fast to me it feels very comfortable with very little stress to my body even on 20m all terrain runs

just to show were im at at the moment i did a half at the weekend with 6,25mm avg

also

should i use 6,25mm as my tempo pace or my threshold pace

ap4305

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Re: help with marathon training programs
« Reply #10 on: January 27, 2010, 01:50:09 PM »
another question please

for long runs and recovery runs at an easy pace im doing them at  about 8mm
is this too slow or too fast to me it feels very comfortable with very little stress to my body even on 20m all terrain runs

just to show were im at at the moment i did a half at the weekend with 6,25mm avg

also

should i use 6,25mm as my tempo pace or my threshold pace


For recovery runs, that is definitely not too slow.  You could even go slower if you feel it is necessary to be ready for your next hard run.  For the easy long runs that pace should be fine, but do remember that you would probably want to include some fast running (within the range of 10k thru marathon pace) during some of your long runs to be optimally prepared for a peak marathon. 

As for where 6:25 pace falls, it depends how you define "tempo" and "threshold."  Under the Tinman system, "Tinman tempo" is generally around marathon pace (could be faster or slower depending on your fitness), so your training day "tempo" pace would be in the range of 6:50-7:00.  If you know your current 5k fitness you can estimate your Tinman tempo pace on the charts provided under Tinman tools.   Since "threshold" in common parlance usually refers to one hour race pace, 6:25 would be right around threshold pace for a training day.