recovery interval

[TrueBlue]

When you guys are recovering between efforts at say CV pace, I know it is recommended to "jog", instead of walk around waiting for the next one.

Would "jog" mean to actually keep going at a jogging (Tinman's very EZ) pace, or would shuffling (practically a walk) be more the standard. 

I always tended to take walk breaks between intervals over the years. 
But can see the benefit of shuffling, as it keeps you from pushing too hard on any one effort. 

[ap4305]

Would "jog" mean to actually keep going at a jogging (Tinman's very EZ) pace, or would shuffling (practically a walk) be more the standard. 

It depends.  The fitter you are, the faster you will be able to go during the recovery intervals.  One of the things I like about any sort of active rest is that how your body responds during active rest is often a good indication of your true racing fitness.  I know I am in good racing shape when the legs begin to feel spry in the middle of the recovery intervals, and it is encouraging to see the progression over the course of a season when not only do the fast running segments get faster, but the recoveries get faster too.  It is important to 'let the process happen' rather than to force the issue, which is why Tinman often assigns distance-based jog recoveries to athletes that he is not able to observe in person on a daily basis. 

If you can only shuffle right now, that is not a problem.  If you are doing hard workouts at the proper intensity, having only the ability to shuffle the recoveries (rather than jog or run) may simply be a sign that you aren't in peak racing fitness yet.  However, it could also be an indication that you are running the workouts too fast.  The important thing is to take a close look at your training and read your body, which is something that recovery jogs force you to do much moreso than walking.         

[Tinman]

I use four labels for active recovery.

1) Walking

2) Jogging (slower than your normal EZ paced run and a tad faster than walking)

3) Jog-floats (means jog for the first part or almost half of the designated recovery distance; float the second part or half. Let your body naturally speed up as it recovers, during a "float." That is, don't willfully control the speed; let it come to you.

4) Floats (starting at an easy effort and progressing the speed naturally as you recover; in cases where a person is fit or the repetitions are not hard, the float can even reach as fast as Marathon Pace)

The type of recovery I prescribe depends upon varies factor. Among the more important are the intensity of the repetitions, the distance or time of the repetitions, the volume of the intense portion of the workout, and the total volume of the workout. Other things play into the mix, but that's between the runners I coach and me.

Regards,

Tinman

[TrueBlue]

As a former racing cyclist, recovery between efforts was almost always very gentle.  Basically just soft-pedaling and eating/drinking until it was time to go again. 

But cycling has a high percentage of red-lining during any given competition.  Whereas middle-distance and distance running tends to be all steady state and the training requirements are such that the red-line is actually a barrier to stay below.

Red-line being a term equating to activities above threshold.

I mention this, as it is why I asked the question about recovery between efforts in this sport. 

[Tinman]

Trueblue -

For CV workouts, I prescribe jogging, normally, because I want active recovery the reduces local (muscular) fatigue, yet keeps respiration (breathing and heart rate) up. Walking would allow respiration to drop more, but one's legs would have more fatigue going into the next rep.

I understand your background a bit since I too competed in cycling (criteriums and a few 25 to 60 miles road races). There tends to be a lot more surging in cycling, in order to break competitors and send them adrift; to prevent competitors from drafting. (The big difference between running and cycling is drafting. The positive effect of drafting is small in running, but in cycling it's huge.)

I have coached cyclists in the past, and one thing I told them is to train differently than their competitors. Rather than soft pedal for recoveries, like their competitors, pedal at a medium intensity. Why? Because the way to really break cyclists is to repeatedly attack - off a steady pace. When you compete in cycling at the top levels you don't have the luxury of soft pedaling between bursts.

A similar strategy in running that I use for top runners is varied paced work intervals. I give them long reps with paces that vary within the rep. This won't work very well for unfit runners, however, since surges absolutely destroy them; and unfit runners become incapable of finishing workouts when they "blow up." I coached a fast 10,000m runner from Australia, back a few years ago (I think it was 2005). Anyway, Nic Bideau asked me to prescribe training for a runner he could not get to improve. One thing I prescribed was varied paces within reps, to get the runner used to top-flight competition. For example, I might give the guy 1200m reps, but vary the pace on each rep. Rep 1 might have a fast first 400, steady next 600, and a fast last 200. The next rep might have a fast 400m in the middle (of the 1200m). Being able to surge and then recover at a decent speed is a key to top level success. Watch the Ethiopians in the major championships and you'll see what I mean. During a 10,000m race they might throw in a 61 lap, then 64, then  62, then 64, to bust up the group. In just 4 laps they will run two hard laps (non-consecutive), and the change of speed destroys the field.

Regards,

Tinman

[TrueBlue]

Tinman,

I understand that at elite levels, guys are throwing surges, but is this something that happens with local 5k's?  I used to be in contention for wins sometimes and it almost always became a who can hold the pace longest that would win, as opposed to attacks.  Except for in the last mile, when someone would usually throw in one last long effort to seperate themselves. 

I do remember the year I did duathlons and I was always getting attacked on the opening run by my main competitor.  He'd surge until I decided it was better to stay steady by myself and then I'd get on the bike and track him down.  It always seemed to me that he was wasting energy, as we still had an hour of racing ahead of us.

I like the idea of varied pace intervals.  This was something I prescribed for cyclists all the time.  Varying rpms, varying efforts throughout a single interval.  It makes sense, as bike racing is rarely the same speed or cadence or effort, for even a single minute. 

In running, most of the varied paces intervals we ever did were always things like 1200's with the first 900 steady and the last 300 kicked in.   Or 400's with the last 100 kicked in.

Just kind of talking things out there, as I try to make another small comeback to my original sport of running.  I'm all ears for advice and have been following the posts on this forum more than anything, as it makes most sense to me.

[ap4305]

I understand that at elite levels, guys are throwing surges, but is this something that happens with local 5k's?   

To the extent that it does happen early in a local 5k race, it is a waste of energy for most people, since most people by definition (if they aren't world class) have enough trouble competing against the clock let alone trying to mess around with fancy tactics in the first mile or so.  Nevertheless, in the back half of a race at any level, there is certainly value in surging to open a gap that is simply too big for the competition to negotiate as the finish line gets closer and closer.   

However, even if you don't use it in race situations, varied pace running as described by Tinman is valuable for all levels.  I'm sure you have heard the saying "when it feels bad, speed up."  Practicing your surges in training during intervals can give you the confidence to find a new gear when the going gets tough at the end of a race.

[gumby]

I've used some of the Dellinger type In/out sessions very effectively with those I coach.  These workouts alternate fast reps at 10k-LT pace alternated with "recovery" reps at AT (roughly marathon pace).  Of course, these are only used with very fit runners who can already handle longer AT runs and 10k paced reps with jogging recoveries.

These workouts are definitely confidence builders, and should not be used real often.  Dellinger called them callousing workouts, and for good reason.  Another workout of this type was an 11 mile run at marathon pace, with 3 hard 3/4 mile surges thrown in.  I think these workouts help advanced runners whether they plan to use surge tactics or not.  After doing these sessions, running at marathon pace without surging is a piece of cake (relatively speaking, or course).

Just another take on the surge stuff.

Gumby

[Schebo]

In the days when I was a fast runner, one of my favourite peaking workouts for 5-10k road/XC was a flat trail/dirt road loop with 3 major uphills that would take around 20 minutes. I would run that at a hard pace and then run even harder uphill. The last kilometer would be run close to all out. If I could manage that pace and the uphill surges I knew I was in a very good shape (if I wasn´t I would usually bonk halfway).

[Moby]

A similar strategy in running that I use for top runners is varied paced work intervals. I give them long reps with paces that vary within the rep. This won't work very well for unfit runners, however, since surges absolutely destroy them; and unfit runners become incapable of finishing workouts when they "blow up." I coached a fast 10,000m runner from Australia, back a few years ago (I think it was 2005). Anyway, Nic Bideau asked me to prescribe training for a runner he could not get to improve. One thing I prescribed was varied paces within reps, to get the runner used to top-flight competition. For example, I might give the guy 1200m reps, but vary the pace on each rep. Rep 1 might have a fast first 400, steady next 600, and a fast last 200. The next rep might have a fast 400m in the middle (of the 1200m). Being able to surge and then recover at a decent speed is a key to top level success. Watch the Ethiopians in the major championships and you'll see what I mean. During a 10,000m race they might throw in a 61 lap, then 64, then  62, then 64, to bust up the group. In just 4 laps they will run two hard laps (non-consecutive), and the change of speed destroys the field.

There is an article by Nic Bideau in the current edition of Run for your Life magazine here is Aus (http://www.runforyourlife.com.au/current.php) and he talks about this type of workout where an athlete runs certain laps within a long rep at different paces.

[Tinman]

Moby -

In that magazine link it refers to an article entitled "Gerschler-Fartlek": is that referring to heart-rate controlled fartlek (180-120, for example)?

Thanks,

Tinman

[Moby]

Hi Tinman

It’s a simplified version.  It outlines that Gerschler’s methods were primarily based on heart rate recovery, but the session outlined is 30 seconds hard with reducing float recoveries.  So 30/90, 30/75, 30/60, 30/45, 30/30 and repeat 2-5 times with 2-3 minutes active recovery between sets.  It suggests doing the hard 30 sec efforts at 3000m pace after a proper warm up and with a proper warm down afterwards.

[Tinman]

Moby -

Odd that the label for that workout would be called "Gerschler-fartlek" since Gerschler didn't focus as much on time as he did HR. Yes, he had limits like 90 seconds as the maximum, but he (and Reindell, the cariologist) thought that starting each new rep before HR dropped to 120 (later they said 130) was better than going before HR was higher, in terms of effectiveness. Also, they used specific repetition distances (often 100m and 200m as a "base" of conditioning) at specific HR intensities and specific HR recoveries. Lying down for recoveries were used, too.

[jKerska]

Hi Tinman

It’s a simplified version.  It outlines that Gerschler’s methods were primarily based on heart rate recovery, but the session outlined is 30 seconds hard with reducing float recoveries.  So 30/90, 30/75, 30/60, 30/45, 30/30 and repeat 2-5 times with 2-3 minutes active recovery between sets.  It suggests doing the hard 30 sec efforts at 3000m pace after a proper warm up and with a proper warm down afterwards.

I've done this workout twice in the past 5 or 6 weeks and it certainly is a great stamina builder. After a good thorough warm-up of 3-4 miles, do as you described with 30 second segments at roughly 3k effort with recovery running in between. The trick is not to run the recovery too slow, for instance the 30 second efforts are at roughly 4:35-4:40 pace for me and I slow to only 6:45-7:00 pace in between. If you recover too slowly your heart rate will drop significantly, but if you recover at easy pace your heart rate will stay within specific limits. 30 seconds at 3k effort will not get you much past lactate threshold even by the end.

Thus you are creating a session where your heart rate is between roughly 150-185 BPM for anywhere between 15-40 minutes. If that doesn't build stamina to the max, I don't know what does!

It kind reminds me of the Jim Spivey story when he worked out with Seb Coe. They did a fartlek on the coaches whistle and afterwords Seb told Jim that the trick was not to run too hard but rather keep your heart rate at a moderate high range for a long duration!

-Jerry