Author Topic: optimal rest-time between doubles?  (Read 3907 times)

Gull

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optimal rest-time between doubles?
« on: December 11, 2011, 09:43:29 AM »
how short can the recovery between running sessions on double days be? I usually have 6 hours of rest inbetween. However sometimes due do time contstraing I have only had 3-4 hours between doubles. How short can the time be between doubles and what is most beneficial if I have morning: easy and evening: hard?

Tinman

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Re: optimal rest-time between doubles?
« Reply #1 on: December 11, 2011, 12:22:19 PM »
3 to 4 hours is optimal, but it's often not realistic for runners.
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Gull

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Re: optimal rest-time between doubles?
« Reply #2 on: December 12, 2011, 09:23:28 AM »
what do u mean by "not realistic for runners"?
And also how long should a morning run be at the minimum? will 30 min be enough or should I go for 40 min?

Tinman

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Re: optimal rest-time between doubles?
« Reply #3 on: December 12, 2011, 11:16:49 AM »
I mean that runners who have jobs typically don't have the luxury of running 3-4 hours apart. Let's say you work at 8 a.m., so you wake up at 6:15 am to run. 3-4 hours later would be 9:15-10:15 a.m. Most runners, unless they are self-employed, can't go for a run at 9:15 or 10:15 am. They might be able to run at 12:00 or after work. That's what I mean by the phrase "it's unrealistic for most runners."
Gull -

There is no minimum duration for a morning run. Even a 10 minute jog in the morning will make your afternoon or evening run/workout go much smoother. I've often told runners just to run 2 miles (3.218 km) in the morning, if they are not accustom to morning running. Even that low amount makes training later in the day much more effective.

As a GENERAL rule, build up to a 1:2 ratio of morning to evening runs. For example, build up to a 30-minute morning run and a 60-minute afternoon / evening run. This idea is covered in my Multiples article in the Tinman Articles section of The Run Zone.

Have a good day!

Tinman
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BoilerTom90

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Re: optimal rest-time between doubles?
« Reply #4 on: December 12, 2011, 11:39:57 AM »
Tinman,

What if one's life schedule is such that the longer of the two runs needs to be done in the morning? My normal day is such that I often have something going on in the evening and it only leaves time for a 4 to 6 mile run. I have to do the longer/harder run in the morning or there wouldn't be time. 

Thanks,

Tom

Tinman

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Re: optimal rest-time between doubles?
« Reply #5 on: December 12, 2011, 12:17:54 PM »
Tom -

Then the same rule for doubles applies, it's just that you reverse the morning and evening runs. For example, you might have a 60-minute run in the morning and a 30-minute run in the evening, or a 50 and 25 or a 40 and 20.

Note that in such a case, where the morning run has to be longer, it's imperative to run slower the first 15-25 minutes than you would if you were doing that same run in the afternoon. Why? Because anytime you have slept for a more than about ~3 hours your body will feel lethargic, and your body will need time to adjust. I actually don't think runners should time the first 2-3 miles of their morning runs. There's too much temptation to push the pace to some arbitrary number that isn't appropriate until one is fully awake and in-sync.

Tinman
« Last Edit: December 12, 2011, 12:20:25 PM by Tinman »
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BoilerTom90

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Re: optimal rest-time between doubles?
« Reply #6 on: December 12, 2011, 12:34:26 PM »
Thanks Tom!

I can attest to what you said about morning runs being 100% correct.  During my morning runs those first few miles are always much slower.    I typically don't worry about it and understand that by the end of the run the pace will be "normal."

Gull

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Re: optimal rest-time between doubles?
« Reply #7 on: December 12, 2011, 12:36:30 PM »
thanks Tinman. It answered my question. just one thing. When u say that optimal would be 3-4 hours between doubles, is that because the short recovery between the 2 runs will create a better/more intense stimuli to the body than having 6-8 hours of rest between the doubles?

Tinman

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Re: optimal rest-time between doubles?
« Reply #8 on: December 12, 2011, 03:06:47 PM »
Gull -

Oxidative enzymes reach their peak activity 3-4 hours after a training run/workout. Thus, the first run serves as an "activator" for the second run. Hence, more energy can be created per unit time via oxidative phosphorylation; you can either run distance faster because more oxidative energy is created per unit of time, or your can run faster over a short distance (like the 1500m-5000m) because you aren't dipping as deeply into anaerobic capacity, which causes fatigue.

Take care,

Tinman
« Last Edit: December 12, 2011, 03:08:44 PM by Tinman »
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ice cream

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Re: optimal rest-time between doubles?
« Reply #9 on: December 12, 2011, 09:56:52 PM »
I have a few questions regarding doubles as well. Currentley I am running about 50-60miles per week on 1 run a day in the morning. I've thought about increasing mileage by adding doubles....the problem is my work schedule. I work tues-fri. 10hr shifts, so weekday runs would be about 12-13hrs apart.

Is this too long apart to do any good?

What is the main purpose to the double run? Add miles or add another session?

The days that I could do doubles in resonable time are sat,sun(long run),mon.
Would it be benificial to do them before, after or even on the day of my long run?

My current weeks workouts are tues(speed), thurs(short tempo), sat(long tempo), sun(long).
Short term goals are a 10Mile tt in under 60min in a month to prep for a half M in 2 months.

What do you think? Should I mess with it or just keep the ball rolling?

Thanks

Tinman

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Re: optimal rest-time between doubles?
« Reply #10 on: December 12, 2011, 10:33:02 PM »
At 50-60 miles per week, you can still improve by adding some mileage, and if you can add doubles, whenever you can, to increase mileage you are likely to experience increases in endurance over time. I don't think your first priority is to fit doubles into a hard schedule - you work 10 hours per day. If I were your coach, I'd tell you to increase your mileage on your non-work days, which is 3 days per week. Add 2 miles per day to each of your non-work days and that 6 miles more. Do that for a month, adding the miles at a slow pace. After a month, add another mile to each day. That's now a total of 9 extra miles per week. Run that for a month and see how you feel. If you feel good, add another mile on each of those non-working days. Now you are 12 miles a week more than you were when you started three months earlier.

In my experience, every 20% increase in training volume results in noticeable improvements in performance. Of course, there is a limit for each person, but you won't know what that is until you actually try to reach your limit or surpass your limit.

Another point I'd like to make is this: You may become fitter and stronger and eventually faster in races by running more miles, but most of the miles you add are slow paced. If you saw how slow Andrew Duncan runs, a 44 year old guy can ran near 2 flat in the 800, 4:05 or under for the 1500m, 8:49 for 3000m, low 15's for 5000m, upper 31's for 10km and he just ran a 1:11:00.0 for the half-marathon (he won the masters division in Las Vegas, and it was his first long race...above 10km.), you'd be amazed. He often runs over 8 minutes a mile, but running slowly allows him to run fairly high mileage, week after week, year after year.

Paul Peterson, who posts here at The Run Zone has run 2:18 in the marathon. Read his comments about mileage. When he runs around 60 miles per week a good amount of his mileage is close to 6 minutes, but when he prepares for the marathon and his mileage ins 90 to 100 per week, he's running a lot of his mileage about 7 minutes per mile. He SLOWS DOWN when he runs more mileage, just like Andrew does. When Andrew was first coached by me he was running 40-45 miles per week and at a strong pace (under 7 minutes a mile) and he was at 16:30's for 5km at age 37. IN the last two years, as a 43-44 year old, he is running more than a minute faster over 5km and he's running  near 80 miles per week, every week except a peak week. Most of his mileage is 7:45 to 8:20 pace, a minute to a minute and a half a mile slower than when he was running 45 miles per week, younger, and slower (over a minute slower in the 5km event, back then, compared to now).

In my view, it all boils down to about 1 hour of running per day. Once you go above that amount, you better run the additional mileage easy. My belief is that you'll last longer, improve more, and be faster in races once your body adjusts. So, my rule of thumb don't run mileage that exceeds 1 hour per day faster. This isn't referring to individual (key) workouts that are supposed to be faster, but it refers to all the extra mileage you add to run between key workouts. Think about my rule of thumb and figure out if it makes sense to you. Perhaps it can guide your efforts to increase training volume effectively and it may result in better racing.

Take care,

Tinman
« Last Edit: December 13, 2011, 11:25:14 AM by Tinman »
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ice cream

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Re: optimal rest-time between doubles?
« Reply #11 on: December 13, 2011, 09:33:33 AM »
Awsome, thanks for the quick reply Tinman. I'll start adding to the weekend runs slightly over the next couple of mounths and see how it goes.

ksrunr

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Re: optimal rest-time between doubles?
« Reply #12 on: December 13, 2011, 03:39:38 PM »
"In my experience, every 20% increase in training volume results in noticeable improvements in performance. Of course, there is a limit for each person, but you won't know what that is until you actually try to reach your limit or surpass your limit"  Tinman

Post of the year in my opinion.   So many in our running club(s) running too little mileage and expecting too much in return.

Captainblood

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Re: optimal rest-time between doubles?
« Reply #13 on: February 24, 2014, 10:14:18 AM »
I just wanted to revive this thread about doubles and the ideal time between the 2 runs so that I completely understand the ramifications of this statement:

3 to 4 hours is optimal, but it's often not realistic for runners.

So ideally it would be best to do a short, easy run 3 to 4 hours before your hard workouts to maximize performance and fitness gains?

Tinman

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Re: optimal rest-time between doubles?
« Reply #14 on: February 24, 2014, 10:30:46 AM »
Absolutely! A morning run, for example, will make an evening race better 9 times out of 10. A morning run will make an afternoon hard workout far more effective and efficient. And, yes, if you can jog 15-25 minutes about 3-4 hours before a race or hard workout that's ideal.
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