Volumes for Differing Workout Intensities

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CoachMJBC

Volumes for Differing Workout Intensities

Post by CoachMJBC » Thu May 20, 2010 7:35 am

Tinman and Others,

I've been in the process of trying to develop workouts for the high school team that I work with for the upcoming year. I'm always conservative in what I ask them to do, but with the broad range of ability levels I'm presented with, I know that sometimes athletes get "thrown under the bus" so to speak.  I really buy into Tinman's idea that workout volumes shouldn't be based off of weekly mileage. Runners of lesser ability levels would end up doing more work than their more talented counteparts running similar weekly volumes. I'm just trying to ensure that the athletes I coach are best served and do volumes of work that are most appropriate for each individual. So my question is this, how long should workouts at certain intensities last (total volume/time duration)?
Aerobic Threshold/Marathon pace/Tinman Tempo Running?
Continuous Lactate Threshold RunsHalf Marathon Pace/Short Tinman Tempos?
Lactate Threshold/Half Marathon Pace Reps?
10K Reps?
5K Reps?
3K/Vo2Max Reps?
1500m Reps?
800m Reps?

Thanks for your time!

Cheers,
Matt

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Re: Volumes for Differing Workout Intensities

Post by ATimmins » Thu May 20, 2010 8:30 am

We use time instead of distance for all of our easy, aerobic, and tempo runs.  The only thing that is the pain is keeping kids at the right intensity.  I know that a 40 minute tempo run at 80% is the same no matter who you are, but getting the kids at 80% is like hearding cats.  All my good kids want to see how far they can get in 40 minutes (they run to fast) and some of my slackers are trying to see how slow they can go.

Intervals are based off the event, so if they can handle the event, they can handle the workout. Meaning my 2 milers should be able to do 12 x 400 no matter if they are doing 65s of 90s, becuase they both will be running 2 miles come race day.

Hope it helps a little.
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road dog

Re: Volumes for Differing Workout Intensities

Post by road dog » Fri May 21, 2010 7:02 pm

CoachMJBC,
W/ coaching multiple athletes, hence a team, one has to look at the volume, as well as the intensity of each workout.  Volume can be based on race performances, and overall mileage of the athlete.  I know for myself, throughout the years, I know the volume of each workout, because I know how I should feel during the workout itself, and the next few days after the workout (both are subjective).  I think when athlete's force either the volume of the workout, or the goal pace of the workout, that is when they start to break down. 

-road dog

el_mariachi

Re: Volumes for Differing Workout Intensities

Post by el_mariachi » Thu May 27, 2010 5:51 am

[quote="road dog"]
Volume can be based on race performances, and overall mileage of the athlete.  I know for myself, throughout the years, I know the volume of each workout, because I know how I should feel during the workout itself, and the next few days after the workout (both are subjective).  I think when athlete's force either the volume of the workout, or the goal pace of the workout, that is when they start to break down. 

-road dog
[/quote]

That is exactly my question. Should I run more weekly mileage do be allowed to run more volume in intervals and temporuns or will this be the start of a break down? How can you find out when you do too much if you don´t push yourself over your performance limit?

I remember Tinman´s rule for TT-runs: 720 / 5k-time. If so, why can´t I do the same with LT- and CV-intervals? I thought about 80% of TT-volume for LT´s and 60% for CV´s. This way, my fast workouts are controlled in volume until I performe better. Also the better your performance, the more specific endurance you´re allowed to run (because the gap between for example CV´s and TT is getting closer).

Let´s compare a world-class runner, a good runner and a beginner in this "system":

world-class: 720/ 13 = 55´ TT, 44´ LT, 33´ CV
good runner: 720/ 17 = 42´ TT, 34´ LT, 25´ CV
beginner: 720/ 22 = 33´ TT, 26´ LT, 20´ CV

Are there any disadvantages if I see it that way?

Sorry for my english, hope you understand,
Martin

kpt4321

Re: Volumes for Differing Workout Intensities

Post by kpt4321 » Thu May 27, 2010 12:38 pm

In your "good runner" category, you show 34 minutes for runs at LT.  If, by LT pace, you mean lactate threshold which is around Daniels T pace or ~15-20k pace, I think 34 minutes is on the long side.  Daniels and McMillan, for example, only recommend about 15-25 minutes at this pace.  I also have a note here that Tinman recommends 93% of 5k pace as lactate threshold (4mmol), to be run for about 20 minutes.

el_mariachi

Re: Volumes for Differing Workout Intensities

Post by el_mariachi » Thu May 27, 2010 2:43 pm

Sure, with LT-pace I  also meant LT-intervals between 1200-2000m with short recovery. 34 minutes of LT-pace for this runner would mean around 9k of intervals @3:40/km, for example 7 x 1200m.

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Re: Volumes for Differing Workout Intensities

Post by ap4305 » Thu May 27, 2010 7:29 pm

[quote="el_mariachi"]
How can you find out when you do too much if you don´t push yourself over your performance limit?

[/quote]

You simply ensure that you stay comfortably under your performance limit in workouts.  As road dog pointed out above, it is largely a matter of learning to read your body, although there are some quantitative guidelines we can follow.  Note the term "guidelines" instead of "commandments."  Your performance limit in workouts isn't very important, nor is trying to sqeeze every little ounce from the workout very important.  Consistent workouts at a controlled but mildly challenging exertion level are most critical for development.

[quote="el_mariachi"]
Let´s compare a world-class runner, a good runner and a beginner in this "system":

world-class: 720/ 13 = 55´ TT, 44´ LT, 33´ CV
good runner: 720/ 17 = 42´ TT, 34´ LT, 25´ CV
beginner: 720/ 22 = 33´ TT, 26´ LT, 20´ CV

Are there any disadvantages if I see it that way?

[/quote]

One disadvantage is that the numbers won't always be right or even close to right.  I guess I fall into the "good" category, and under Tinman's direction I have run more than 33 minutes at CV in one workout and have run as little as 12 minutes of Tinman tempo.  Although I might be faster than someone in the beginner category, when I do my first few post- marathon CV workout in a few weeks, I'll probably do less volume for that workout than a beginner in the middle of hard training might do, even though they could be one to two minutes slower per mile. 

The second disadvantage is that Tinman bases these relationships, in part, upon calculus formulae that reveal non-linearities when relating time and distance.  There is nothing inherently wrong with trying to quantify everything, but if you are going to do so you need to account for the changes along the continuum of bioenergetics as the time and intensity of the workbout increases or decreases.  Regular division will not give you the most accurate numbers.  Nothing wrong with relying upon the numbers, but if you are going to assign them a great deal of importance, you better be spot-on with the basis for the formulae.  The numbers can serve as a rough guide, but should only be used in conjunction with feel and observation.
Allan Phillips
Doctor of Physical Therapy
Tinman athlete since 2003
www.ventanapt.physio
IG: @thekettlebelldoc

road dog

Re: Volumes for Differing Workout Intensities

Post by road dog » Thu May 27, 2010 8:16 pm

El_M,
From past experience, being a sub 17-minute 5k runner (though now I am above 17-minutes, but below 18-minutes), and running 60-70 miles a week, for CV I use:
7*1000
or
6*1200

For LT, I use:
5*1m
or
4*1.5m
or
3*2m

To answer inquiry, if you run more mileage, your times should improve, and you will be able to run more volume. 

-road dog

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Re: Volumes for Differing Workout Intensities

Post by Tinman » Thu May 27, 2010 9:40 pm

This won't be as long a post as I'd like, simply because I have to complete and essay for application to an MBA program.

Over the year, many people have sent emails to me stating they run 100 miles per week and workouts like 6 x 1 mile at Interval pace because that's what Daniels' recommends. I ask about their 5km race times, an all too often they state the 17-18 minutes is what they achieve. (I used to be shocked by that revelation, but not anymore.) To me, it's insane to be a 17-18 minute 5km runner and run 6 x 1 mile at the pace I can hold only 14-15 minutes (that's about Daniels' interval pace). In my opinion, that's way too much quality training. I've told them to cut their mileage to whatever they can do in 1 hour per day during the work-week, and include a single 1.5-2 hours long run on the weekend. For their performance level, I recommend about 3 miles of Daniels Intervals or 6-7 x 1km at my CV pace or 4-5 x 1 mile at 1-hour pace (LT). That's plenty. Also, I recommend running 3-4 x 200m, for that performance level, at about 1500m, perhaps as fast as 800m speed when strong, as a conclusion to longer interval workouts. That's hard enough training!

Ranges I recommend (this was in the chaptes of a book I didn't publish):

MVO2 pace (think a little faster than 3km race-speed): about 6-18
minutes of "short" reps (low to elite fitness).

Interval pace (about what you can run in a  15-minute race: about 9-27 minutes of reps (low fitness to elite fitness).

CV pace (about what you can run in a 30-33 minutes race or or 38-43
minutes on a day when you aren't feeling fresh): 12-36 minutes of reps (long to elite fitness).

1-hour race-pace (LT) when fresh or 69-78 minutes' pace on an average day, when not fresh (when somewhat tired): 15-45 minutes of longer intervals/reps (low fitness to elite fitness).

Tempos (Tinman Tempos) depend upon the goal race event. When the event is below the half-marathon, tempos are a secondary training tool, and the amount isn't too much. However, as a general rule, 20-60 minutes is the normal range I prescribe (low fitness to elite fitness).

Take care,

Tinman
Tom Schwartz
Last edited by Tinman on Fri May 28, 2010 12:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Volumes for Differing Workout Intensities

Post by ATimmins » Thu May 27, 2010 10:50 pm

those recomendations line up with my training exactly.  I always like looking at training paces by time and not race distances.  Meaning I pace should be what you can hold for 15 minutes, not 5k, and tempo's should be 1 hour pace and not half marathon.

My buddy is a 90 minute half marathon runner, and it makes much more sense to give him tempo workouts at 60 minute pace instead of half marathon when im trying to increase his LT, figuring in the 90 minute half marathon he is well below LT pace.   

I realized this when he told me he did an 8 mile half marathon pace run and my jaw dropped becuase i could never imagine doing such a workout.  But after thinking about it his half marathon pace is well below his LT and he is a marathoner, so 8 miles at sub threshold pace isnt that bad of a workout.  Where if i attempted it, i would be useless for a few days afterwards.
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el_mariachi

Re: Volumes for Differing Workout Intensities

Post by el_mariachi » Fri May 28, 2010 2:40 am

Thank you once again for good informations. It´s a long way to get to know your own body, but I will try to do it in a smart way.

el_mariachi

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Re: Volumes for Differing Workout Intensities

Post by ATimmins » Sun May 30, 2010 10:34 am

You will learn some hard fast rules pretty quick, you'll be surprised at what a good teacher your body is.

My buddy is one of those guys that can do ridiculous workouts.  We are talking 5 miles at 5k pace in intervals, etc.  When i try it, i fail horribly, walk funny, and loose a week of training.  One or two of those sessions and i know never to try it again.  3 Miles is enough for me, and that's pushing it.

But then again, my buddy jogs his recovery days (im talking 8+ minute miles) where i stick to a faster recovery run (630s)  So maybe my harder easy days equates to easier hard days, etc.  But i know what works for me, and he knows what works for him.
Forced into running and loving every minute
1.5 Mile:
First = 13:38
Current = 7:10
Powered by Powerbar - www.powerbar.com
Dressed for Success in Brooks - www.brooksrunning.com
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Running Blog - http://www.powerbar.com/blog/atimmins.aspx

road dog

Re: Volumes for Differing Workout Intensities

Post by road dog » Mon May 31, 2010 5:30 pm

ATimmins,
I am similiar, where my ceiling for intervals @5k is 3-miles.  Either 6*800, or 5*1000.

-road dog

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