State XC progression last 6 weeks?
Featuring TheRunZone?s resident coach Tinman. All participants are welcome to post and reply to topics in this section whether you?re looking for advice, or sharing your own coaching experience.

17 posts   •   Page 1 of 2   •   1, 2
toughnessbucket
Newbie
Newbie
 
Posts: 20
Joined: Sun May 27, 2012 9:51 pm

State XC progression last 6 weeks?

by toughnessbucket » Tue Sep 18, 2012 8:10 pm

7 weeks until State Champs here in Tennessee. Any suggestions on the progression of final quality workouts that have worked best for those that have followed Tinman training principles?

Jeff_D
Newbie
Newbie
 
Posts: 20
Joined: Mon Apr 16, 2012 8:48 pm

Re: State XC progression last 6 weeks?

by Jeff_D » Wed Sep 19, 2012 2:21 pm

it would seem to me this is largely dependent on 1) the previous training of your athletes, in particular there summer/early fall build ups (2) the amount of racing they will be doing and (3) the age and experience of these athletes.

Having never coached anyone besides myself via tinman principles I would say that the things that have worked best for me were continuing aerobic development and doing high end aerobic workouts (i.e tempo's, CV reps, 5k + 30s per mile mile reps, etc.), maintaining the training volume, including the long run, up until the final week. High schoolers race too frequently as is and get plenty of racing sharpness through this (Surprise). Unless you have a unique situation where racing is more sparse I would stick to straight stamina workouts and mileage. I think if you aren't running super high mileage then big tapers are a mistake. In fact, I think that big tapers can be a mistake even for those running 100+ mpw. Cutting the long run back and running slightly less in teh day or two before the race should be sufficient. There is no magical six week lead up, just consistent training with good workouts and racing.

dkggpeters
Hero Member
Hero Member
 
Posts: 640
Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2012 3:11 pm

Re: State XC progression last 6 weeks?

by dkggpeters » Wed Sep 19, 2012 3:11 pm

Jeff brings up a good point.  You may also want to identify how many races that they are going to be doing in this time frame.  I would imagine it would be between 10 and 14 (1 to 2 times a week).  This will significantly impact what you would do on the remaining days of the week.  If you raced 2 days a week vs 1, you may have one less quality session available although the race would be considered quality.

I am interested to hear what Tinman has to say about this.

toughnessbucket
Newbie
Newbie
 
Posts: 20
Joined: Sun May 27, 2012 9:51 pm

Re: State XC progression last 6 weeks?

by toughnessbucket » Wed Sep 19, 2012 4:09 pm

Races left are Oct 6, Oct 13, Regions Oct 25, State Nov 3. Up to this point we have consistently used CV, Tempo, Threshold, Hills. We have run 2 races prior to this date. Mileage for boys 45 - 55 depending on running age. Mileage for girls 35 - 45 also depending on running age. Long run 8 - 13 depending on weekly mileage and midweek run 15% of total mileage. One varsity girl's season will extend 3 more weeks for FL south regions. Thanks for your input.

Tinman
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 4283
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 12:02 am

Re: State XC progression last 6 weeks?

by Tinman » Wed Sep 19, 2012 8:48 pm

On that mileage, there's hardly any need to taper. If you taper, after running less than 45 miles per week, you better not drop more than 5 miles for the week or else the consequence will be loss of endurance/stamina and lots of trouble holding a decent pace after the first mile of the race.

Keep doing what you are doing until 4 weeks before the state meet - or whatever meet will be the last one of your xc season - and then replace a last rep or two of your stamina workout with a fast rep or two. For example, if you normally run 6 x 1km at CV pace (jog 200m btw reps) + 4 x 200m at 1-mile pace, a common workout that I tell high school coaches to use, then adjust the workout to 5 x 1km at CV pace (jog 200m btw reps) + 1 x 1km at close to Max V.O2 pace (jog 600m) + 4 x 200m at 800m speed (jog 200m btw reps). Maybe your stronger runners can do 4 x 1km at CV rep + 2 x 1km at close to CV + 4 x 200m at 800m pace. I would not risk running 2 x 1km at a fast pace, if your runners aren't strong and experienced, however.

The week of the last big meet, cut out your long run, do a short time-trial of 800m and a few easy 200s two days before the race. That will peak your runners. If you runners are super fit already, from a good summer of training and strong stamina development early in the season, you run a time each of the last two weeks, but still include the long run the second week out from your state meet (or biggest/most important meet of the season).

Take care,

Tinman
Tinman
(coaching available)
Inquire via email:
runfastcoach@gmail.com

toughnessbucket
Newbie
Newbie
 
Posts: 20
Joined: Sun May 27, 2012 9:51 pm

Re: State XC progression last 6 weeks?

by toughnessbucket » Wed Sep 19, 2012 10:22 pm

Thank you for your input.

wuxcalum
Full Member
Full Member
 
Posts: 113
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2009 6:02 pm

Re: State XC progression last 6 weeks?

by wuxcalum » Sat Sep 22, 2012 7:06 am

Toughness,

I have used the exact plan that Tinman has laid out for you for the past two seasons and I believe that it's very effective. I will add a little detail to what we do for the peaking 800m time trial workout. We do 3x1k at CV (no faster) with 400 jog rest. Yes 400 because it's the end of the season and we are looking to peak and not wear ourselves out. Then the kids put their spikes on for the 800 time trial. We run the first 400 at mile pace and then the second 400 all-out. This prevents them from going out too hard and should let them finish fast. We tell them to run with smooth and efficient form so that that practice running this way while tired.

Jimmy

wuxcalum
Full Member
Full Member
 
Posts: 113
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2009 6:02 pm

Re: State XC progression last 6 weeks?

by wuxcalum » Sat Sep 22, 2012 7:13 am

Tinman and others,

This is my first season with teams on the bubble for making state. In the past I have either had teams I knew would make state or knew would not make state. Thus, it was very easy to plan the peaking phase and workouts for my athletes. What are your suggestions for my teams that have to run their best at sectionals to get to state and then still run well the following week at state? In the past I had one boy in a bubble situation and we did the "peak week" plan the week of sectionals and then again the week of state. This particular individual did run very well at both races. Thanks in advance!

Jimmy

Tinman
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 4283
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 12:02 am

Re: State XC progression last 6 weeks?

by Tinman » Sat Sep 22, 2012 10:36 am

WUX,

In a situation where you must peak twice (at the Regional and State meet) because your athletes are borderline in performance level it is important to first focus on mileage and then workouts.

If your athletes are running 60 or more miles per week, taper them 10% two weeks beforehand and then another 5-10% the week of the Regional meet.  For the week of the state meet, you must not taper them below 30% of "pre-taper" mileage. Example: Joe ran 60 miles per week for a few weeks prior to tapering; you cut his mileage by 10% two weeks out, and he runs 54 miles. Then, the week of the Regional meet, you taper him another 10%, and he's at 48.6 miles for the week of the Regional meet.  If Joe looks fine on Monday of the State meet week, you may keep him at 48 miles for the week. If he's tired, drop his miles another 5-10%, so have him run 46-43 miles for the week of the state meet. This is slightly risky, I'll suggest, in that your athlete may in fact lose some fitness with such a long taper. If I were coaching Joe, who had a "base" of 60 miles per week prior to the first taper, I'd probably taper him to 55 the first week and 50 the week of the Regional meet; and then I'd keep him at 50 the week of the state meet, with the intent that it's risky going below 50 per week for a someone focusing on a 3-mile cross-country race. I'd rather taper the total quality of training Joe does than taper his mileage too low. I know this isn't conventional, but I believe it works, and many runners I've coached have run personal bests with minimal taper in mileage but reduction in total quality of training.

For the runner who has a "base" of below 50 per week, I'd taper them by 5-10 miles for the two weeks before the Regional meet and then I wouldn't taper mileage the week of the state meet.

Tinman
Last edited by Tinman on Sat Sep 22, 2012 10:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
Tinman
(coaching available)
Inquire via email:
runfastcoach@gmail.com

wuxcalum
Full Member
Full Member
 
Posts: 113
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2009 6:02 pm

Re: State XC progression last 6 weeks?

by wuxcalum » Sat Sep 22, 2012 4:34 pm

Thanks Tinman! Just to clarify, do I run the 800 time trial both weeks?  Thanks!

Jimmy

Tinman
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 4283
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 12:02 am

Re: State XC progression last 6 weeks?

by Tinman » Sat Sep 22, 2012 4:43 pm

Yes, 800m TT both weeks.
Tinman
(coaching available)
Inquire via email:
runfastcoach@gmail.com

ZachCC
Jr. Member
Jr. Member
 
Posts: 66
Joined: Mon May 28, 2012 9:29 am

Re: State XC progression last 6 weeks?

by ZachCC » Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:56 pm

What day off week did you do 3x1000@cv and hard 800? Our Regional on Sat, was thinking-Tues or Wed.
thanks!!

wuxcalum
Full Member
Full Member
 
Posts: 113
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2009 6:02 pm

Re: State XC progression last 6 weeks?

by wuxcalum » Thu Sep 27, 2012 3:13 pm

Toughness,

Below is what Tinman advised I did on a previous thread. I have followed this prescription for peaking the last two season and will again this season.

Wux - The week of peaking (sectional meet), eliminate the long run on Monday and do the CV+TT on Tuesday.

Monday: average distance run, easy (if your girls average 6 miles per day (not the long run), then they run 6 miles easy on Monday); Tue: 2 miles easy + 3 x 1km at CV (jog 400m or 600m recoveries, which are longer than the normal 200m recoveries) + 1 x 800m (first 400m at 94% of maximum effort - so, roughly 1600m speed - and the second 400m at 100% effort). Normally I tell runners to run about 1 mile race-pace through 500m and then run fast the last 300m, working on concentration, sprint mechanics, lifting like a 400m sprinter, and relaxing at top speed). You don't need 8 minutes between the CV reps and the 800m TT. The actual time they run the 800m is not important. The goal is to sharpen, to tune them, and not overextend them with exhaustive work that continues on and on, such as repeats at MVO2 pace.
Wed - normal distance, v.ez; Thur -1/2 distance, + 3 x 200m striders; Fri - short and sweet - run 2-3 miles easy (a long warm up); Saturday - hard warm up, early, jog around and do light striders until race-time. Run steady, run smooth, run to win; the race is won after half-way! Jog a long cool down (run the whole course for cool down, to refurbish aerobic efficiency)
« Last Edit: May 17, 2011, 03:14:26 PM by Tinman »


Jimmy

toughnessbucket
Newbie
Newbie
 
Posts: 20
Joined: Sun May 27, 2012 9:51 pm

Re: State XC progression last 6 weeks?

by toughnessbucket » Thu Sep 27, 2012 10:43 pm

Thanks and good luck to your team as the season ends.

ZachCC
Jr. Member
Jr. Member
 
Posts: 66
Joined: Mon May 28, 2012 9:29 am

Re: State XC progression last 6 weeks?

by ZachCC » Fri Sep 28, 2012 6:13 am

Thanks for feedback :D I love this site! Season going great so far, been using a lot of what I have learned here, thanks Tinman,
and the Coaches who have answered my questions over the last few months.

  Next
17 posts   •   Page 1 of 2   •   1, 2

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], Google [Bot] and 6 guests

It is currently Fri May 24, 2019 6:07 pm