Tinman for fast-twitchers
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thenofxlagwagon
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Tinman for fast-twitchers

by thenofxlagwagon » Tue Mar 27, 2018 3:41 pm

The typical Tinman weekly schedule for a 5K runner as I understand it is:

1 - Long Run
2 - Easy Run w/ Strides or Surges
3 - CV or LT workout followed by short hills or short speed
4 - Easy Run
5 - Easy Run w/ Strides or Surges
6 - Tempo workout followed by short hills or short speed
7 - Easy Run

Should changes be made to this format when dealing with runners who are extremely fast-twitch oriented? Those for whom 5K is the max distance at which they are competitive and who do noticeably better at the mile/800/400 I mean.

I fall into this category. I race much faster in shorter distances and I find stamina workouts of the sort Tinman suggests ware me out more than one would expect. The rests often feel too short for me and I find myself having to almost go to the well to maintain paces suggested by the Tinman calculator towards the end of workouts (*I use my 5K time to get paces from the calculator). I have run plenty of mileage over the past 5 years (2500-3000 miles per year) and I assume it's not a matter of an underdeveloped aerobic system at this point. My body just struggles with this stuff. Alternatively, faster workouts leave me feeling great. However tired I feel, I can hit whatever paces I need to and carry on with my day without any ill effects. Because I'm an adult runner, there are far fewer opportunities to race the shorter distances throughout the year and I'd like to focus on getting better at the 5K.

With all this in mind I would appreciate this board's opinion on the following alternative schedule for fast-twitchers:

1 - Long Run
2 - Easy Run w/ Strides or Surges
3 - CV, LT or Tempo workout with more rest than normal followed by short hills or short speed
4 - Easy Run
5 - Easy Run w/ Strides or Surges
6 - 5K, Speed or Hill based workout with lots of rest
7 - Easy Run

Edits, alternative ideas, and disagreements are encouraged

Thanks!

PeterMichaelson
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Re: Tinman for fast-twitchers

by PeterMichaelson » Tue Mar 27, 2018 8:43 pm

Just wondering:

1) How old are you?

2) Do you base your CV pace, LT pace, and tempo pace off your 5000 time or off something else?

PeterMichaelson
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Re: Tinman for fast-twitchers

by PeterMichaelson » Tue Mar 27, 2018 8:44 pm

Sorry, you answered the second question in your post!

How much CV work are you doing in a workout?

What is your 5000 time?

thenofxlagwagon
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Re: Tinman for fast-twitchers

by thenofxlagwagon » Tue Mar 27, 2018 9:43 pm

PeterMichaelson wrote:Sorry, you answered the second question in your post!

How much CV work are you doing in a workout?

What is your 5000 time?


I am 33 years young, the 5K time I use is what I think I could run at that moment which has been 17:00 for the past year. I've run 17:00 plus or minus 10 seconds for the last year or so. For CV workouts I'll usually do 5 or 6 x 1K w/ 90sec rest and 4-6 x 200 to follow. Pretty standard from what I've seen on this board. In the proposed schedule I would probably end up adding a bit more volume to that stamina workout. So 8 x 1K for CV, 6 x 1 mile for LT and 5-6 miles for Tempos and add a bit more rest to everything.

For more context on the fast-twitch thing, here are all my PR's:
Half - 1:22
10K - 36:45
5K - 16:50
Mile - 4:48
800 - 2:05
400 - 56

PeterMichaelson
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Re: Tinman for fast-twitchers

by PeterMichaelson » Tue Mar 27, 2018 10:00 pm

TInman once wrote that his guideline for CV work is 420 divided by your 5k time, so 24.7 minutes based on 17 flat. If you are doing CV 1000s in 3:30 or so, that guideline says don't do more than 7 in a workout. I guess you could do more with more rest, but that might negate the beneficial effects of CV work. There is another guideline of 720 divided by your 5k time but I can't remember if that is for Tinman Tempo work or LT work.

As the great philosopher Frank Zappa said, "You are what you is" so as a middle-distance guy, you are always going to be better at short stuff. As for competition opportunities, USATF Masters competition starts at 30, so you could run in the championship in Spokane this year. Have you tried entering local college meets through DirectAthletics? Some will allow post-collegiate runners and 2:05 will be competitive in many of these meets.

thenofxlagwagon
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Re: Tinman for fast-twitchers

by thenofxlagwagon » Tue Mar 27, 2018 10:21 pm

PeterMichaelson wrote:As the great philosopher Frank Zappa said, "You are what you is" so as a middle-distance guy, you are always going to be better at short stuff. As for competition opportunities, USATF Masters competition starts at 30, so you could run in the championship in Spokane this year. Have you tried entering local college meets through DirectAthletics? Some will allow post-collegiate runners and 2:05 will be competitive in many of these meets.


Yes, I have actually been entering middle distance races through direct athletics for the last couple seasons. It's a good time for sure. After May though, track race opportunities dry up and June through January it's all longer stuff. Low 16's usually win 5K's in my local scene. There are a few guys I'd love kick down if I could stay close enough for the first 2.5 miles. I'm just trying to get there.

fasterthanslow
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Re: Tinman for fast-twitchers

by fasterthanslow » Wed Mar 28, 2018 2:26 pm

You list your PRs, but can you list your current times by race distance (other than the 5k)?

thenofxlagwagon
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Re: Tinman for fast-twitchers

by thenofxlagwagon » Wed Mar 28, 2018 2:34 pm

fasterthanslow wrote:You list your PRs, but can you list your current times by race distance (other than the 5k)?


The 400, 800 and Mile are all from the last 3 weeks, the 10K and Half Marathon were both run this past November.

My 400 speed hasn't changed for a few years. The 800 and mile have both improved by 5 seconds or so in the last year, the 5K time hasn't moved for 2 years, and the half and 10K times improved by 3 minutes and 1 minutes respectively in the last year.

fasterthanslow
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Re: Tinman for fast-twitchers

by fasterthanslow » Thu Mar 29, 2018 8:24 am

It appears you are continuing to improve, from your recent PRs. A couple of questions/thoughts:

1) How fast can you race a 200m? I think if you are significantly faster than 26 seconds, you should probably focus on improving your aerobic ability. Tom once wrote about high volume 200's at about 2400m-3k race pace (for you), with shorter rests as a way to help bridge the gap between 200m/400m/800m races. If you can't run much faster than 26 seconds but you feel like you are an explosive athlete, you may want to try some shorter all-out reps (hills and flats) with full-recovery to improve your overall power and coordination at high speeds. Which leads me to....

2) What event is your event focus? If you want to race the 400m/800m/1-mile competitively you need the short/fast work on the hills, regardless. If you want to improve your half marathon (by comparison), obviously you need much less pure speed/power work.

I hope others chime in, too. I find this topic interesting.

thenofxlagwagon
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Re: Tinman for fast-twitchers

by thenofxlagwagon » Thu Mar 29, 2018 11:27 am

fasterthanslow wrote:It appears you are continuing to improve, from your recent PRs. A couple of questions/thoughts:

1) How fast can you race a 200m? I think if you are significantly faster than 26 seconds, you should probably focus on improving your aerobic ability. Tom once wrote about high volume 200's at about 2400m-3k race pace (for you), with shorter rests as a way to help bridge the gap between 200m/400m/800m races. If you can't run much faster than 26 seconds but you feel like you are an explosive athlete, you may want to try some shorter all-out reps (hills and flats) with full-recovery to improve your overall power and coordination at high speeds. Which leads me to....

2) What event is your event focus? If you want to race the 400m/800m/1-mile competitively you need the short/fast work on the hills, regardless. If you want to improve your half marathon (by comparison), obviously you need much less pure speed/power work.

I hope others chime in, too. I find this topic interesting.


First, I appreciate the response. Thank you for taking the time.

1. I've never raced a 200 or even worn spikes. I've only ever done them as pace work for other events or at the tail end of a workout. I think 26 is the best I've ever managed and that was with a rolling start. It's funny considering my 400 time which I've also never raced. I don't consider myself a particularly explosive athlete. I can certainly manage a pretty good kick at the end of a race and I can surge when I need to but I feel like it usually takes me a bit to get up to full speed.

2. My focus at this point is the 5K. I'm too slow to be seriously competitive in the shorter distances on the track (maybe when I'm a master I'll revisit), and I'm much too slow in anything over 5K on the roads. Locally, I'm very close to being competitive in the 5K and I'd like to figure out how to leverage my shorter distance ability to bridge that gap.

The main reason I decided to post is to try and determine the best course of action for someone with my skill set trying to get better at the 5K.

- Is it better to do 2 stamina workouts per week with some kind of speed after each workout as Tinman and this board usually suggests? Will this method inevitably make me better despite my general struggles with such work?
- Or is there some sort of modification to that formula that would work better for someone whose talent lies more in the middle distance range?

fasterthanslow
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Re: Tinman for fast-twitchers

by fasterthanslow » Fri Mar 30, 2018 8:06 am

The reason I asked about your 200m speed is because I wanted to understand your background and to better understand if you were truly of the explosive variety or if you have very good speed, but fall into the mid-distance camp. Sounds like the latter.

It is possible that you are a middle distance runner who has undeveloped speed and also an underdeveloped aerobic system.

I am going to assume that you did not run track in high school. If you had, you likely would have naturally gravitated towards the middle distance events and found that you had solid speed as compared to your peers. After all, that is what you are finding now. Reading your posts gives me the impression that no one at a local 5k wants to be near you at the end of a race. However, there are few avenues for you on the local scene because the 5k is the shortest common road race out there.

I am not a coach but I think something you may want to consider is fartlek at the paces of your strengths 800m, 1-mile, 3k (even 400m pace in the form of fartlek is appropriate at times if the duration/rest/volume is just right) as a way to run a Tinman Tempo, LT, CV effort, but "through the back door"

For example, 100m "on" and 100m "off", where you are alternating 100m at 1-mile effort and easy running every other 100m. I think you can get to Tinman Tempo/LT that way. One minute on and one minute off, where you are alternating 5k pace with easy running feels to me like LT/CV work. The latter reps are going to be more difficult and the earlier ones easier, but the effort seems to "average" to the right place. Tinman wrote about this once before.

Again, I am no coach but I am offering a suggestion as a possible solution for the problem. Very interested to see if others agree.

thenofxlagwagon
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Re: Tinman for fast-twitchers

by thenofxlagwagon » Sun Apr 01, 2018 5:46 pm

Very interesting thoughts. Thank you!

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