800m training
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zeeman
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800m training

by zeeman » Tue Apr 03, 2018 6:13 pm

What does everyone feel about 800m training?

I read guys like Steve Magness or others who say that too much lactate threshold work is bad for guys who are rely heavily on fast twitch fibers (400m/800m types).

How do you all feel about training these speed racers for the 800m? Should they be doing weekly CV workouts? Should 800m/1500m types be doing weekly CV workouts?

Just wonder what everyone else thinks.

dilluh
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Re: 800m training

by dilluh » Thu Apr 05, 2018 3:01 pm

Not much to add besides 800m training and racing is fairly technical relative to longer events. This is mainly because it's the perfect "in between" distance where sprint meets endurance and thus you have many energy systems in play along with pure sprint ability.
Knowing exactly what kind of runner your dealing with matters the most in how you train them to run an optimal 800. Whereas, someone who's a highly talented 5-10k runner, you can throw a number of training systems at them and they'll perform at 95-98% max performance. Not so with 800 training, I believe. Very individualized training is required for optimal results. Pure 800-1500m runners are a rare breed.

runthe8
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Re: 800m training

by runthe8 » Fri Apr 06, 2018 10:00 am

I would agree that too much LT training doesn't agree with athletes who are more skewed to the shorter events. And usually, these athletes hate tempo runs or LT runs, in my experience. My runners who are more 800 oriented prefer CV or Aerobic Power (from Tom's calculator) based stamina work, and I usually keep their reps shorter than my 800/1600/3200 oriented kids. AP 600s are favorites with that 800 focused crew. With my lower level kids/beginner track athletes (developmental kids or young 400/800 kids), we run lane 6 CV 400s as a staple early to mid season workout with a 40-45 second walk-the-stagger recovery, followed by a small volume of race pace work.

For me as a coach, it is not always easy to determine what kind of athlete I am working with. Sure, when you have a kid who can run 15 low for 5K cross, but can't break 56 seconds for a 400 or 2:02 in the 800, that's pretty obviously a slow twitch kid. But what about these guys? I have a boy who has run sub 15 mins for 5K cross, 9:06 3200 last year outdoors, split 4:07 in a 1600 in a relay indoors this year, split 1:52 indoors in the 4x8, and probably could run 50 flat in the 4x4. I have another one with a similar profile, just over 15 in 5K cross, 9:13 3200 last year, 4:09 1600 split recently indoors, 1:51 relay split indoors, and 51-52 400 split. I really don't know what the heck these kids are- they perform very well across a wide range of events. I do know that they run CV work every week to 10 days pretty much 10 months out of the year however, so I'm keeping that in their training!

zeeman
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Re: 800m training

by zeeman » Fri Apr 06, 2018 4:12 pm

runthe8 wrote:I would agree that too much LT training doesn't agree with athletes who are more skewed to the shorter events. And usually, these athletes hate tempo runs or LT runs, in my experience. My runners who are more 800 oriented prefer CV or Aerobic Power (from Tom's calculator) based stamina work, and I usually keep their reps shorter than my 800/1600/3200 oriented kids. AP 600s are favorites with that 800 focused crew. With my lower level kids/beginner track athletes (developmental kids or young 400/800 kids), we run lane 6 CV 400s as a staple early to mid season workout with a 40-45 second walk-the-stagger recovery, followed by a small volume of race pace work.

For me as a coach, it is not always easy to determine what kind of athlete I am working with. Sure, when you have a kid who can run 15 low for 5K cross, but can't break 56 seconds for a 400 or 2:02 in the 800, that's pretty obviously a slow twitch kid. But what about these guys? I have a boy who has run sub 15 mins for 5K cross, 9:06 3200 last year outdoors, split 4:07 in a 1600 in a relay indoors this year, split 1:52 indoors in the 4x8, and probably could run 50 flat in the 4x4. I have another one with a similar profile, just over 15 in 5K cross, 9:13 3200 last year, 4:09 1600 split recently indoors, 1:51 relay split indoors, and 51-52 400 split. I really don't know what the heck these kids are- they perform very well across a wide range of events. I do know that they run CV work every week to 10 days pretty much 10 months out of the year however, so I'm keeping that in their training!


Thank you for responding! That was super helpful.

How often do you use aerobic power? And is it better to do 'aerobic power only' workouts or to tack a few on after CV intervals?

runthe8
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Re: 800m training

by runthe8 » Sat Apr 07, 2018 9:49 pm

I would not normally do CV reps prior to doing AP reps, unless I used a CV rep to ensure they are warmed up before beginning the AP reps. I would follow the AP reps with some faster race pace work, maybe a breakdown set of 300-200-100, with the 300 at 800 pace, 200 at 400 pace, 100 quick and relaxed, or just 4x 150 at 400 pace, that sort of thing. We have had a lot of success doing combo workouts with various paces in each workout, so much so that I rarely do a workout that is just one speed.

wuxcalum
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Re: 800m training

by wuxcalum » Mon Apr 09, 2018 11:06 pm

runthe8,

What kind of volume and recoveries do you use for your AP 600 combo workouts? Congrats on your wonderful success indoors with your relays, btw! Thanks in advance!

runthe8
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Re: 800m training

by runthe8 » Fri Apr 13, 2018 12:37 pm

Volume would depend on the kid. My veteran kids would do 6-7x 600 at AP pace. YOunger ones might only do 5. The recovery is usually just 200 jog. Younger ones or the ones who aren't as fit might walk 50, jog 150. After the 600s my kids would do 3x 300 at 800 pace with slow 300 jog in between (or slow walk 100 for younger, less fit kids).

The kids I have who would do this type of training fall into a few categories:
1) solid 800 meter runner girls (low 2:20s) My number 2 and number 3 800 girls would do this workout. In cross these girls are high 19 mins for 5K, and only one made our top 7...barely. Both run the 4x4 for our team and neither are competitive in the 3200, though neither truly has enough leg speed to be what I would call 'fast twitchers', they are 61-62 second girls in the 400, but faster than our number 1 girl in the 800 (who is most definitely a slow twitcher aerobic beast who only runs the 800 in the 4x8 because we need her!) Both my number 2 and 3 girls are injury prone and can't run big mileage.

2) a couple of my 9th grade girls who are showing potential from 400-1600 AND some older girls who don't want to train year round and who are in my second tier of 800 meter runners. Both of these groups of girls are 2:30-2:38 types currently, though I think some will be 2:26 or so by season's end.

3) boys who are not gonna make our top tier no matter what they do, in any event (just being honest). They have profiles like 18 flat 5K cross plus or minus 30 seconds, 11:00-11:30 3200, 5:00-5:15 mile, 2:09-2:16 800, 56-58 second 400. I sure seem to have a lot of those kids. These are boys I have who have been running a year or more, so it's pretty clear they don't have a ton of natural ability. I don't know that what we are doing is necessarily the best approach with this crew, but these kids prefer the 800 (some like the 1600 too) and I make sure they are still doing regular CV reps as well (this group of boys especially). All are improving but slowly. Most of these boys are not hard core about being runners, it's more of a social thing for them.

Probably more than you wanted to know!

wuxcalum
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Re: 800m training

by wuxcalum » Mon Apr 23, 2018 2:22 pm

Thank you runthe8!

I love the details!

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