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Training Organization, and Heat question

Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 8:19 pm
by TexNav
Hello Tinman, I am new to your forum but have read a number of your contributions from letsrun over the past year, the vast majority are great. I have really enjoyed reading a lot of the information on your site w/out the BS of the other forum.

A few questions that I believe I have seen you comment on, but can't find answers too right off the bat are:

-Do you normally recommend 2 whole days in between hard days?
For example a faster than race pace session Tue, then Wed and Thur easy, before hitting it hard again Fr?

-When training and racing say, for 5 and 10K. I believe you had posted making the quality day during the week, a CV + reps type workout (as opposed to faster than race pace work Intervals) correct ?

-How much do you find that heat and humidity affect training? I live in N. Texas and get hit with a big dose of both for sure. I can put off (regretfully) my running until 730 to 8pm when it is tolerable. But is it normal for people to have issues maintaining threshold type fitnessand pace? Should I focus more on if not CV work, more cruise interval type threshold work (basically something with a break and not continuous), or do I just have to accept a drop in pace during this season?

Thank you in advance for any input.

Training Organization, and Heat question

Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 10:18 pm
by Tinman
Tex -

I am glad to help you. In the future, please do me a favor and ask one question at a time. I am a typical male (one thing at a time, please)? Thank you.

As a general rule, you never need more than one very hard workout per week. A race would serve the same purpose. So, on another day 3-4 days later, do a moderately challenging workout. Somewhere during the week do a long run for endurance development. If you don't do that, do plenty of doubles per week to raise your endurance.

If you run a 3k to 5k race, you don't need another workout that does long reps at those paces, that week or the week that follows it. Rather, run some CV or slightly slower reps plus a handful of short but quick reps (really, they are long striders - about 30 seconds each). Example, if you race on Saturday - a 5k, for example - then on Sunday do a long very easy run or Monday do a long run with a handful of easy striders included. On Wednesday, do 6-8 x 1km at 5k pace plus 10 seconds per mile (~CV pace) or 15 seconds per mile (~1-hour pace, which some incorrectly call LT pace), or about 24 seconds per km slower (Fast Tempo pace). These are middle of the range numbers, by the way, and don't universally apply to all performance levels. This fits at 36-37 minute 10k runner fairly well.

Heat and humidity seriously affect performance at a given percentage of peak aerobic power. All things are affected, not just "threshold." I lived in Wichita Falls, TX, north of Dallas, while in the Air Force and during the summer I'd run 8:00 a mile on my normal 5-6 mile loop (2 loops around base was typical for me). I jumped in a 5k road race one Saturday morning at 7 am and it was about 76 degrees, considerably cooler than normal. I ran just under 6 minutes a mile and couldn't believe it. During the week, I used my normal rule of thumb: current (today's)( 5k pace plus 2 minutes a mile for distance runs at easy pace and 1 minute per mile for tempo runs. I did long intervals at + 30 seconds per mile, normally; and I developed some very good fitness doing so. I felt tired and slow and weak during the summer running that slowly, but by late October I was crusing around 16 flat for the 5k.

Training Organization, and Heat question

Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 11:12 pm
by TexNav
Haha I will remember the 1 question at a time request. Thank you in advance.

Training Organization, and Heat question

Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 11:17 am
by Old Guy
I'm going to jump in on this thread with another question.

I'm also in the DFW area like TexNav. I went out Friday after work and did a CV workout when it was 105 degrees. I then ran about 6 miles Saturday afternoon (when it was 102) after officiating some indoor soccer games. I thought that running 10 miles on Sunday at 5 a.m. would feel relatively easy, but I had to quit after 8 miles because I felt really sick to my stomach.

Getting past the part where I'm an idiot, I'm trying to tie this in with the heat thread you had earlier where you mentioned one of your runners doing doubles right now because it's too hot to run the necessary miles in singles. Your runners are probably doing significant more miles than me, however.

Should someone like me, currently trying to run 50-60 mpw, do doubles with this heat or just suck it up with singles?

Question 1a: :) If the answer to the above question is yes to doubles, how should I break things up if I'm running 8 miles most days with a 12-miler on Sundays?

I apologize for the two questions, but I didn't want you to have to take even more time to answer a follow-up question that is so closely related to the first question.

Training Organization, and Heat question

Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 11:46 am
by wysiwyg
my opinion:
if "sucking it up" in singles makes you ill, it defeats the object of training, if its uncomfortable but bearable do it.
if i was to break up 8 miles, i would do 4/4 because i couldnt bear to get changed for less than 30 mins of running, it probably takes a mile or 2 to warm up aswell.

Training Organization, and Heat question

Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 5:11 pm
by Tinman
OG -

My rule of thumb, from way-back, is middle distance runners should double when they surpass 50-55 miles per week and distance runners should double past 70-75 miles per week, but when it's very hot and humid that rule is thrown out.

I lived in Texas while in the Air Force and learned to double even though I was running 42 miles per week. I did it like this: Mon: 4 + 4; Tue - 6;
Wed: 4+4; Thu - 6; Fri: 4+4; Sat - 6; Sun - 2 hour bike ride (drinking aobut 60 ounces of fluid, during that time!)

Training Organization, and Heat question

Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 5:45 pm
by Old Guy
Okay, that makes sense. I wanted to see how you would put the doubles. I appreciate the help.

I was drinking a bunch before, during, and after the workout. Unfortunately, I can sweat it out faster than I can put it in. During the 8-mile run yesterday, I put away 32 ounces of water in about an hour (that's probably why I felt sick). I was still down 4.5 pounds from when I started the run.

Heat and drinking

Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 12:19 am
by by7
Old Guy,

I have the same kind of problem. I usually lose around 4 pound/hour in the current hot weather and it is hard to keep up with the drink replenishment because I suffered some intestinal issues after drinking 2 quarts of water after longer runs.
my humble suggestions:
- drink a good 20 ounces (500/600ml) right before the run
- during the run I do not like to drink that much, I normally take around no more than 30 oz with me
- avoid at all cost carbonated drinks (even if I love them..). They are a blaster for the intestine and usually drive me to some sickness if I drink too much (I can drink a quart of sparkling water in few gulps after a run).
- after the run, I drink another 20 oz and then avoid to drink too much, too soon. I wait to drink every now and then with some small cups

Training Organization, and Heat question

Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 12:26 am
by Tinman
Friends,

If you are having intestinal issues from drinking (assuming you have eaten foods with fiber in the over the last 8-12 hours), then you are needing electrolytes. Sodium is the biggest help, in my opinion for dealingwith stomach cramps. (Note; if you have heart problems, don't take salt and don't run unless you are under a cardiologist or sports medicine doctor's supervision.

If you take some electrolyte tablets (as prescribed on the label) (I like Endurolyte by Hammer Nutrition) you will have far fewer stomach aches - and probably run better or faster too.

Training Organization, and Heat question

Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 12:45 am
by D_Bean
Just to throw my experience in to the mix. I have lived in SE TX since I was a child and have had to tolerate painful summers of blistering heat and dreadful humidity - during the summer it's not too uncommon to get around 95 degrees with the humidity being around 80%, leaving the heat index in the 100-110 range...a horrible combination for distance runners. I, too, have found doubles for the majority of days to be the best solution. I found out once again that attempting singles can prove to be harmful. Towards the end of spring/beginning of summer when temp's were starting to climb out of the 80's and into the 90's (back in late May) I was running in the 90's per week in singles. I ended up with a mild leg strain after nearly 2months of such training. I felt strong and felt good doing so in the spring before the heat hit too badly, but once it came in - I was done.

One thing you must remember is that as you're muscles begin to dehydrate, they're more susceptible to strains/tears/pulls. Logically, if you're doing - for example - 91miles a week, that's doing a 13miler every day. If, on average, you were to run 7:00/mile that means you're running for 91minutes without any prolonged stops or rest. If you broke it down into a 6miler in the morning, rest/recover, then a 7miler in the evening - you're only putting the pounding on your body for 42minutes, recover/rehydrate, and then for 49minutes.

I've found that in the heat - what works best for me at least - is to double every day except for my long run (usually Saturdays) and Sunday (I'll go for only one run of ~10miles).

Training Organization, and Heat question

Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 9:59 am
by Old Guy
[QUOTE=Tinman]Friends,

If you are having intestinal issues from drinking (assuming you have eaten foods with fiber in the over the last 8-12 hours), then you are needing electrolytes. Sodium is the biggest help, in my opinion for dealingwith stomach cramps. (Note; if you have heart problems, don't take salt and don't run unless you are under a cardiologist or sports medicine doctor's supervision.

[/QUOTE]

I agree with this and Mr. Bean's comment about being more prone to cramps, pulls, and the like. I played golf while walking a hilly golf course in 104 degree temperatures a little over a week ago. I spent the rest of the evening popping out of bed with cramps, and my legs were really sore the next day. I find the same thing happens after an evening run right now because it's hard to get rehydrated before bedtime.

I have a friend who uses those little salt packets you can get at McDonald's. If he eats salt and feels fine, then he figures he has an elctrolyte problem (He's a vet, so he might know a bit about this). If he tries salt and feels sick, then it's not the problem. He doesn't even bother to open the packet, he just swallows the whole thing.

I do know after my run Sunday that I was craving potato chips like you wouldn't believe once my stomach settled down.

I have a 2.5-mile loop that I use once it gets hot like this, so I have access to water every 20 minutes or so, If it gets over 100 and the sun is still high in the sky, I move to a 1.5-mile loop to be safe because my routes are not shaded. Thus, I have access to water without having to carry it. The one thing I have learned is to drink early. If you're running for 90 minutes and wait 50 minutes before drinking, you could find yourself in trouble.

I also pour water over me as it gets rid of some of the salty slime I'm covered in. I make sure to not get my shoes wet as they get heavy enough with the sweat running down my legs.

Thanks for the suggestions.