Question for MD extras (not mileage)

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Trackrunner220

Question for MD extras (not mileage)

Post by Trackrunner220 » Wed Dec 10, 2008 3:45 pm

Does anyone have any advice on anything extra to do that is not running?

Such as, but not limited to, Lifting, cross training, plyometrics, drills?

I am getting into the track season and have been basically doing my own lifting, but I know barely anything of the sort

So I work different muscles in the arms

But i was wondering does hamstring curls or leg presses...or any different arm lifts make a true difference? And does anyone have any plans for lifting?

All advice is greatly appreciated! I have been searching the past threads and couldnt really locate anything that focused off running.

BarryP

Question for MD extras (not mileage)

Post by BarryP » Wed Dec 10, 2008 5:35 pm

From my bevy of knowledge I'd say the following; any good running program will include stretching and some plyometrics. Regarding the plyos, I'm not talking necessariyl about heavy plyos involving jumping off of boxes. I'm talking about high knees, butt kickers, skips, etc. Many simply call these form drills instead of plyos to distinguish between the two. I've always believed that the shorter the event is, the more important they are, and vice versa.

Beyond that you may benefit from *some* strength training, but you should always remember that these should be focused toward runner training, not pro wrestler training. This means some lifting with the core muscles and some of the weaker muscles to keep from getting any imbalances. IMO, yoga would be a better alternative to weights.

All that being said, consistent running and injury prevention will get you 98% there.

Trackrunner220

Question for MD extras (not mileage)

Post by Trackrunner220 » Wed Dec 10, 2008 6:30 pm

When you say stretching do you mean Static strecthing, dynamic, the rope?...i know a lot of people are for/against certain types because like static can be counterproductive.

Usually every day we downa half mile warm up with 50m of butt kicks, high knees, karaokes(sp), back running, and some others

But thanks for the reply its appreciated!

U.N.O.

Question for MD extras (not mileage)

Post by U.N.O. » Tue Dec 16, 2008 7:16 am

I have found that I keep my hamstrings in better shape when I don´t stretch hamstrings at all. And very little stretching for other muscles too.
I recommend short full out sprints and some coordination (butt skips and so before sprints)uphill and flat all in one session. Hill spints are more gentle to hamstrings than flat sprints so I recommend those before moving to flat sprints. There is plenty of talk about plyometrics but in my opinion short max sprints are the best strength/power training for a MD/LD runner.

SteveO

Question for MD extras (not mileage)

Post by SteveO » Tue Dec 16, 2008 2:48 pm


Tinman
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Question for MD extras (not mileage)

Post by Tinman » Tue Dec 16, 2008 10:05 pm

Respectfully, I disagree with short uphill sprints as being vital for building strength and power. In my experience, longer hills reps at slightly slower speeds will transfer better to middle distance and distance racing. Why did Seb Coe, Steve Scott, Jose Abascal, and Hicham El G. do 100m or longer hill reps? THey never ran anything shorter than 100m. El G did both both 100m and 300m hills. Bekele does 300m and 400m hills.

I think Renato Canava is a smart coach, but I see zero evidence to confirm his short hill sprints method. In my opinion, a flat out 50m hill sprint is more risky than a 100m plus hill rep at a slighly reduced speed. Injuries, particularly to Achilles Tendons and pattelar tendons are going to happen with all-out sprints. Now, if a person runs 50m sprints at 90-95% speed, that's different and acceptable in my book.

I ran 30-50m hill sprints for 3 years in high school as a football player. I did probably 100 hill workouts with the football team (between summer and in-season training), plus I did them in p.e. class because the varsity football coach was my p.e. teacher. I know all about all-out hill reps. I know that I probably suffered 6 serious problems in three years. I know that half or more of the boys in my class suffered similar injuries. At one point, we had 7 of our starting 11 varsity players injured from hill sprints. Similarly, I know all about plyometrics. I did them 3 years as a starting point-guard on the high school basketball team and 4 years during track seasons in high school. The injury rate was about 30%.

My point is this: train don't strain (Lydriard). When you max out, especially for short duration efforts; you run a great risk for injury. Let me do one comparison between weight training and sprint training. When you lift maximum weights; the risk for injury is much higher than when you lift moderately heavy (say 80% of max. weight). Let's say you go to the weight room and decide to do maximum (1 rep) squats. Now, further, lets say you do a single max-rep, rest 2 minutes, do another, rest 2 minutes, do another and on and on for 4 to 8 reps. What do you think the chances are that you'll strain a muscle or sprain a ligament? If you said high you are right. The same goes for all-out sprints repeated with limited rest. It's one thing to sprint 100m in a track race. It's a whole different thing to run another 100m and another and another and so on with 1-3 minute rest breaks.

Friends, if you only learn one thing from me, let it be this: moderation and consistency (Bill Bowerman) and Train don't Strain (Arthur Lydiard) should be tatooed on your hands and feet. You should recite it 5 times every workout or more. You should live by the credo, breathe the credo, and pass it on to the less experienced people you meet in the sport.

Regards,

Tinman
Tinman
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Inquire via email:
runfastcoach@gmail.com

U.N.O.

Question for MD extras (not mileage)

Post by U.N.O. » Wed Dec 17, 2008 1:36 am

About those short sprints, my way to run those is max seep while RELAXED, it´s important to avoid pushing too much. I feel like I need those full out sprints to keep myself injury-free. Maybe I have more those type llb twitches so I need those sprints, also Seb Coe did regularly 60-80m sprints on flat ground in the winter with all that weight/jump work.
Though there is high rate of people whom should be very careful when getting in to sprint work and someone would be best to avoid that FULL OUT work totally because of high injury risk, and there I would recommend what Tinman did. P.S. I sprint 2 times per week and I haven´t have problems ;)

rxb

Question for MD extras (not mileage)

Post by rxb » Wed Dec 17, 2008 1:52 am

[QUOTE=U.N.O.;6694] I feel like I need those full out sprints to keep myself injury-free. Maybe I have more those type llb twitches so I need those sprints, also Seb Coe did regularly 60-80m sprints on flat ground in the winter with all that weight/jump work.
Though there is high rate of people whom should be very careful when getting in to sprint work and someone would be best to avoid that FULL OUT work totally because of high injury risk, and there I would recommend what Tinman did. P.S. I sprint 2 times per week and I haven´t have problems ;)[/QUOTE]

Flat ground or slight downhill strides seem to work for me, too. And I enjoy them. Six in the latter stages of a long run, four after a CV or TT workout, 60 - 80m in length, starting at about 1500m pace and finishing at 600m pace. And occasionally, a 30 - 40m burst at 200m speed. For an 800/1500 kind of runner, like me, it's a good way of keeping in touch with your fast twitch muscles during base or distance-racing periods without seeming to have any negative effect on aerobic conditioning.

I don't do them on uphills, though. And they aren't full-out; it's controlled speed.

Schebo

Question for MD extras (not mileage)

Post by Schebo » Wed Dec 17, 2008 6:55 am

[QUOTE=U.N.O.;6694] Seb Coe did regularly 60-80m sprints on flat ground in the winter
[/QUOTE]


Source? I haven´t read that anywhere else.

U.N.O.

Question for MD extras (not mileage)

Post by U.N.O. » Wed Dec 17, 2008 6:58 am

About injuries I should also say that I haven´t have those unless some joint/tendon pain which have gone away with ice treatment. (I have been running a long time, almost 20years.)
When I was teenager I ran LOTS OF 50-400m sprints (mostly ~100m) over and over again, I throw javelin on the backyard over and over again etc... I believe it´s crucial to do those kind of things when young. If you haven`t done that then you will not stay injury-free if you suddenly start doing those when grown up, I think. So I don´t recommend full out sprinting to all runners. You should know yourself and things what you have done in the past!

U.N.O.

Question for MD extras (not mileage)

Post by U.N.O. » Wed Dec 17, 2008 7:12 am

[QUOTE=Schebo;6696]Source? I haven´t read that anywhere else.[/QUOTE]

Thanks for asking I checked the interview where Seb said something like "After almost all training runs I did fast 80m-100m sprints" (translated by me from that interview)
Although those aren´t necessarily done full-out and those weren´t exactly what I said (60-80m). But I can speak from my experience that those sprints works for me at least.

Schebo

Question for MD extras (not mileage)

Post by Schebo » Wed Dec 17, 2008 12:12 pm

[QUOTE=U.N.O.;6698]Thanks for asking I checked the interview where Seb said something like "After almost all training runs I did fast 80m-100m sprints" (translated by me from that interview)
Although those aren´t necessarily done full-out and those weren´t exactly what I said (60-80m). But I can speak from my experience that those sprints works for me at least.[/QUOTE]

He was obviously talking about what most of us call "strides". Quite a big difference.

U.N.O.

Question for MD extras (not mileage)

Post by U.N.O. » Wed Dec 17, 2008 12:49 pm

[QUOTE=Schebo;6700]He was obviously talking about what most of us call "strides". Quite a big difference.[/QUOTE]

Knowing and assuming are quite a big difference.

U.N.O.

Question for MD extras (not mileage)

Post by U.N.O. » Wed Dec 17, 2008 1:09 pm

After studying more of Seb´s winter training he had that 30x100m hill session and other session like 10x200m hill at ~90% effort. I believe he alternated those but I don´t know for sure. He also used 6x1000m hill as a core workout.
From march on he tried improve his top end speed by 60-80m sprints.

rxb

Question for MD extras (not mileage)

Post by rxb » Wed Dec 17, 2008 4:20 pm

I would be inclined to agree with U.N.O. on this point. I doubt that Coe was just doing middle-distance paced strides; he probably would've been going quite fast if he was running only 80m at a time. His father was a firm believer in the benefits of faster running-- and there's no arguing with the results.

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