Not coaching-related, but worth your while...

Featuring TheRunZone?s resident coach Tinman. All participants are welcome to post and reply to topics in this section whether you?re looking for advice, or sharing your own coaching experience.

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D_Bean

Not coaching-related, but worth your while...

Post by D_Bean » Tue Dec 23, 2008 7:30 pm

I was just about to head out the door for a run the other day, but got some strange compulsion to go back and watch the 800m finals video from this year's Olympic Trials. I sat there and watched and remembered a clip I'd seen from the same race of the last 200m taken by someone actually sitting in the stands, rather than a network camera, on the home-stretch. After searching around for a good bit, I found it; 5months later it still gives me chill-bumps to watch it and listen to the crowd roar 10seconds in as Symmonds makes his move. I couldn't help but think to myself, "That's what it's all about." The comraderie; the sharing in one anothers efforts of both fan and participant; and the love for the sport. Hope you enjoy...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJsrgKSm ... 1&index=35

Tinman
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Post by Tinman » Tue Dec 23, 2008 9:45 pm

Dramatic! Just like this 800m race: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LHid-nC ... F&index=29 in Munich, 1972 (by the way Dave Wottle ran 1:44.3 at Eugene in the Olympic Trials that summer). Or, how about this dramatic and inspirational finish? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uOj0zjPzg-c&NR=1

or this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHe4ecyG7Y0

or this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qthi7ZnN ... re=related

or this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_E-R97LS ... re=related (note, this is where Jim Ryun set the National High School 1 mile record. Also, note; Peter Snell ran 20 miles near Santa Monica on a long easy run 6 days prior to this race. Who says long runs make you slow?)
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TexNav
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Post by TexNav » Tue Dec 23, 2008 10:45 pm

Wow, I knew Wottle had won the 800m gold, but never had seen it. What a finish.

And with Mills, I know that the overall time/pace is not of today's OG standards, but that kick at the end was amazing. To be honest I don't think I've ever seen a distance runner look so much more like a sprinter at the end of a race.

Months back, Mills spoke at a University nearby. I didn't go b/c of my dumba$$ job, which I later left. I wish I had left that job sooner.

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Post by Tinman » Tue Dec 23, 2008 11:15 pm

I met Mr. Mills at the Division III national meet one year. He was a guest speaker. What super nice guy, and quite the motivator!
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Kevin3310

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Post by Kevin3310 » Wed Dec 24, 2008 2:08 am

Tinman can you clarify on rumors (or facts?) of Peter Snell and Lydiard parting ways. Also what do you think was happening to Peter when he had that big streak of non first place finishes before his retirement (Jim Ryun race included)?

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Post by Tinman » Wed Dec 24, 2008 6:36 pm

Kevin -

Yes, Snell and Lydiard parted ways between the 1960 and 1964 Olympic Games. I can't remember the dates, but I think it was 1963 or 1962/1963. Lydiard, brilliant and bold, was very stubborn, I have read. Snell wanted more freedom, as I recall, to do some things differently. For example, Snell wanted to do a weekly light speed workout during base (marathon) preparation. Snell ended up playing a lot of tennis and badmitton during the base period to keep his quickness and speed. THey mended in the months leading to the 1964 Olympic Games (a mutal benefit, no doubt). Snell you must understand already had a solid understanding of what he needed to do in order to be successful, but in the end he decided that being one's own coach is a bad idea. It's too hard to be objective about yourself!

I do not know about the non-first place finishes, in particular, but I can only say that Snell was, to paraphrase him, "tired and long overdue for a break." It's hard traveling and training, and in Snell's case he was recruited all over the world to compete.

I highly doubt he was doing the foundational (base) work, in later years, that made him strong in his early years. Thus, my guess is he was not as fit. You have to understand, Snell, when home, worked a normal 9-5 job; just as many did in those days. He didn't have a shoe contract and the ability to lay around and rest when not training; as many elite runners do now-a-days.
Tinman
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Kevin3310

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Post by Kevin3310 » Thu Dec 25, 2008 3:41 am

Do you think you can do a contrast between Peter Snells training and El guerroj's training? I wonder what the top miler did compared to another times top miler.

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Post by Tinman » Thu Dec 25, 2008 1:20 pm

[QUOTE=Kevin3310;6739]Do you think you can do a contrast between Peter Snells training and El guerroj's training? I wonder what the top miler did compared to another times top miler.[/QUOTE]

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kevin -

That's a good question! I'll make this my last reply to a question today. I will be at my wife's relatives and enjoying some time to relax (I plan to run though, as every dedicated runner should do; even on holidays) for a couple of day, so I may not respond to questions. Others on this website are versed in training, so they can help you too.

A lot of people look at El G. and think he was doing hard intervals year-round. Such a statement is untrue. I have read accounts of El G's training (given by sources like his coach - I don't remember the spelling of his name by it's something like Kafka - and some other Morrocoans that have coached AFTER they had trained under Kafka; e.g.). Coach Kafka emphasizes 5,000m training for 1500m runners. He says over and over that most of the year El. G and the others he trained (he's train about a dozen runners to 3:37 or under) work on develop aerobic capacity (a la Lydiard), but his overall presentation of training is different than Lydiard's. I'll explain this below.

The huge mistake the non-physiologists - coaches and runners alike who are untrained in physiology - is assuming that interval work is anearobic, which is not necessarily true. Any good swimming coach will tell you that interval workouts - even for the long-distance specialist - is the absolute norm and necessary for success. Intervals can be at low enough intensities to ensure focus on aerobic capaicity development and metabolic efficiency enhancement.

Another common mistake: reading and believing in old racing event charts; which show precentages of anaerobic and aerobic contribution for various racing distances. Example: 400m is 80% anaerobic and 20% aerobic or 800m is 66.67% anaerobic and 33.33% aerobic or the 1500m is 50% anaerobic and 50% aerobic. Those numbers came from studies, which used inaccurate oxygend debt models from the 1950s. The model and method of acquiring the numbers involved the process of measuring consumption of oxygen during a race-like effort on a tredamill, and then also measuring the amount of oxygen a runner consumed after the run and until he or she reached a normal resting value breathing rate. The ratio of during and after running oxygen consumed was written into chart form and into research articles. Non-phyiologists like Fred Wilt, a coach, made the information widely available before advancements in technology could confirm the theoretical validity (construct validity) of the model and numbers. In truth, the numbers were right in absolute terms (internal validity) but only within the restraints of the given method of gathering data. Later, research revealed that internal validity of data was better gathered through radio-isotope tracking of metabolic energy cost and production through specific process such as PC generation, glycolysis, and oxidative phosphorylation. In the case of Fred Wilt and those who believed the numbers presented from initial studies, the external validity was inaccurate and erroneous.

Pragmatic clarification:

Jim ran 800m on a treadmill at 400m per minute (which he had run on a track a few days before) and consumed 5 liters of oxygen during the run and 10 liters of oxygen after he stopped running (until he reached a resting state). Hence, the total assumed metoablic demand of the 800m event run in 2:00 was 15 liters of oxygen. The ratio of consumed during and consumed after running was 1:3 or 33.3333% during (aerobic) and 66.6666% after (anaerobic). *This, however, was an oversimplification of the actual metabolic demand; as you will see below.

Based on more recent scientific methods (more accurate methods), only 20% of the post-running oxygen consumption, on average, is attributable to the metaboic cost the event (or more accurately the DURATION of the event); evidence in the last 20 years using labeled isotopes has revealed this. So, of the post-run consumption of 10 liters of oxygen (above resting value) had only 2 liters of oxgyen that was deficient during the run. Thus, the ratio of anaerobic to aerobic was 2 to 5, which means that 28.57% was anaerobic and 71.43% was aerobic. (I created and sent a chart to Ron about this about a month ago. When he has time he'll post it in the Tinman Articles section). In my charts you'll see that 2 minutes of all-out running is ~70% aerobic and 30% anaerobic. The truth is that duration (minutes and seconds), not the event, determines the ratio of anaerobic to aerobic. The ratios vary slighlty in relation to a runner developed speed, but not much.

Further, it's important to understand that the ratios are the AVERAGE cost for the duration of a given event; but, the early part of the event the ratio is much more anaerobic and later it is much more aerobic than the average. In an event like the 800m that last 2 minutes, after about 75-80 seconds the current (meaning at that moment) aerobic use is around 80%. By 90 seconds it is closer to 85-90% aerobic. The vary reason that 800m runners need solid aerobic capacity is the rising percentage of aerobic energy contribution; as a runner goes further and further toward the finish line. It can be argued that in the last 10-15 seconds of the 800m event the demand becomes a little more anaerobic again as the runner attempts to increase the speed. The attempt is basically a null because the runner, when voluntarily raising demand for more energy - through mental will, prevents slowing of the pace rather than increasing of the pace. A runner who had developed very good aerobic capacity and excellent efficiency will slow less in the last third of an 800m race.

- More in the next post, if I don't run out of time before I pack out vehicle for the trip.
Tinman
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Post by Tinman » Thu Dec 25, 2008 1:59 pm

To quickly compare Snell and El. G's training; they both did a lot of aerobic capacity/efficiency training. Snell did more continuous runs at a steady pace/effort while El. G. did a combination of steady runs (about 3-3:30 per km) and long interval work (1,000s to 2,000s were common) at high aerobic efforts. El. G. ran a lot of 2ks at 2:45-2:40 per km. (By the way, if El. G. was in 3:49.34 shape - for 1 mile - his CV pace would have been 2:43.7). Thus, you can see did a lot of aerobic interval work. He did some repeats in the winter over 1km in 2: 35-2:40, which is 5k to 8k racing pace for him.)

Some people might think that 5k paced work is anaerobic, and they would be very wrong. A 13 minute (5k) race for El. G was only 6% anaerobic, on average, and if you take away the first 3 minutes of the race and the last minute, it is only about 2-3% anaerobic. There is nothing wrong with doing 1km reps at 5k pace during base work, provided you don't run at goal pace. If you run at current (today's pace) then you are performing aerobic training. In my opinion, it is better to play it safe during base training by runnning at CV pace, which is the pace you can hold for about 33 minutes, plus or minutes 3 minutes depending upon your endurance. The key is this: if you take away the first 3 minutes and last 1 minute of a 33 minute race; you run at a 99% aerobic level.

Snell ran steady distance work for 10 weeks prior to doing a hill training phase. However, during his hill phase, just like the "anaerobic" and sharpening phases that followed, Snell still performed distance training and a weekly long run covering at least 2 hours (even while traveling the world and competing) to retain aerobic efficiency.

In my opinion, if Snell were racing on modern tracks with pacers; Snell could (hypothetically) run 1:42.5 flat for 800m and 3:47-48 in the mile. He ran 1:44 low on grass for 800m and 3:54 for the mile - virtually alone for the 800m and mostly alone for the mile; on tracks that were shorter than 400m, so he had to run more turns. He wasn't even into the racing season when he set the world best for 1 mile (he hadn't even done "anaerobic" training yet.

If Dr. Peter Snell was competing in the Olympic Games in 2012; I estimate he would win th 800m and could place in the top 3 in the 1500m.
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Chaf

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Post by Chaf » Thu Dec 25, 2008 2:25 pm

Thanks for the Info Tinman.

here is a something that i've been thinking about lately and it's related to what you wrote about, for instance Goumri (Runner A) who is a 2:05 and 27 flat 10 ker does 10x1km in 2:45-2:43, a low 33min 10 ker (Runner B) will cover the same distance in about 3:20.

since this is a workout and not a race the Ratio Aerobic/Anaerobic of each repetition will probably vary slightly, but on average do you think the Ratio is the same for both runners (A and B)?

since you mentioned that the duration not the distance that determine the ratio of Aerobic to anaerobic, would it be better for runners to do interval training by time? especially harder sessions such as intervals @ 3k-5k pace?

my point is, it seems to me that a 16min 5ker will be a lot more fatigued after a session of 1k repeats than Goumri, which is not necessarily a good thing, on the other hand the distance if the event both runners train for is the same (5k, Marathon...) so it makes sense to do Intervals by distance!

Kevin3310

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Post by Kevin3310 » Thu Dec 25, 2008 5:48 pm

Well like people often say, their are different ways to skin a cat. Would you agree that El guerroj's training would be a mixture of Lydiards (I don't know if you can say that because of steady state runs, everyone did them) and Coes?

Thank you for all the information Tinman, Merry Christmas.

Chaf

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Post by Chaf » Thu Dec 25, 2008 6:45 pm

A few years ago, El G's coach, giving a speech in Britain said they he learned a lot from what Coe, Cram were doing.

Don't forget that El G trained primarily for the 1500, even late in his career when he started doubling at the worlds and olympics he said that only about 20% of his training was geared towards the 5000m, and he ran about 100 miles a week.

Kevin3310

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Post by Kevin3310 » Thu Dec 25, 2008 7:46 pm

Oh I did not know he ran 100 mpw. He pretty much trained in altitude correct while professionals took care of his health and nutrition, he had to train. You ever think his record will be broken?

Chaf

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Post by Chaf » Thu Dec 25, 2008 8:25 pm

I could not find the interview (in french) where he stated that he ran about 160km a week.

He mostly trained in Ifrane, Morocco, about 5000-6000ft of altitude, which is not very high, he also trained in the US, New Mexico i think.

i do think that his 1500 record will be broken, and no i don't think Rachid Ramzi has what it takes to do it. the 10000m record on the other hand will be hard to break, even for Bekele, not that he's slowing down, it's just hard to find pacers that can go deep into a long race, another problem is motivation... and a broken foot!

Kevin3310

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Post by Kevin3310 » Fri Dec 26, 2008 9:29 pm

http://www.mariusbakken.com/index.php?p ... groupid=21

The mileage of El Guerrouj has been recorded to around 200 km a week some weeks in the winter by observers, with an average of around 160. This includes a long single distance run of about 21 km on Sundays at 3.30 to 2.50 up at 2100 meters altitude where they drive up to (takes around 30 minutes). And all with high, high quality in the training.

wow long run of 13 miles thats pretty.... small for a 100 mpw.

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