Marathon Help to Crack 2:30

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Jeriod
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Re: Marathon Help to Crack 2:30

Post by Jeriod » Tue Jun 07, 2011 6:14 pm

Definetly do not do what I did! You will pay for it in the Marathon...


I know I will pay for it... the only alternative is dropping out so I'll take my chances, been specifically training for this race since last december...
I have a solid background of pro-cycling (about 30 years ago, guess I'm getting old)
Kept relatively fit after my cycling career and started to run more seriously 7 years ago. We'll see where it gets me.

In my personal experience a marathon is more in the mind than in the body if one has the necessary background. The thing I always keep in mind is what one of the world best marathon coaches, R. Canova, says: once the house is built, there is no use in continueing building. I think we can  put the cherry on the cake but... with all the risks for injury, certainly as a masters runner. I've learned my lesson...

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Re: Marathon Help to Crack 2:30

Post by md_master » Wed Jun 08, 2011 1:54 am

[quote="Jeriod"]
The thing I always keep in mind is what one of the world best marathon coaches, R. Canova, says: once the house is built, there is no use in continueing building.
[/quote]

Thats a good saying from Canova. Which brings me to the question of knowing when the house is built: how do you measure that?

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Re: Marathon Help to Crack 2:30

Post by wysiwyg » Wed Jun 08, 2011 10:32 am

I'm afraid I'm going to disagree on the marathon been more in the mind than the body. I'd say the capability\capacity to achieve a certain time is 99.99% physical attributes,however I will agree that the factors thy determine the probability of whether or not you fulfil that capability ON THE DAY has perhaps a 20% contribution from your "state of mind."
When canova talks about the house being built he is referring to low intensity base building.that is why his older elite marathoners have lower global volume but a higher absolute and relative contribution from event specific workouts.(MP +\- 10%). hope that helps....it certainly doesn't mean you can"blag" the marathon!

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Re: Marathon Help to Crack 2:30

Post by Jeriod » Wed Jun 08, 2011 11:39 am

Thats a good saying from Canova. Which brings me to the question of knowing when the house is built: how do you measure that?


For Canova, high-volume training for marathoners exists only to be able to run the long fast runs at a high percentage of marathon pace.  Once the athlete can complete these workouts the high volume is no longer needed, the long runs have to get faster faster or longer. Volume must increase for the first 10 to 12 years for a beginning runner, with a progressing ratio of general/specific work. e.g. 80% general, 20% specific the first 2-3 years, becoming 60/40 after about ten years and finally 20/80 after about 20 years of running (most will be masters runners by then)

So when do we know when the house is built? In my opinion,this is highly individual. We all have to test our mileage limits. I think as a rule when you can no longer consistently get in more volume without getting hurt or decreasing performances, you got over your max volume. It would be wise then to consistenly train at about 80-85% of that volume for 2-3 years and then push the volume a bit higher.

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Re: Marathon Help to Crack 2:30

Post by Tinman » Wed Jun 08, 2011 12:04 pm

Though Canova states that specific work must constitute a high percentage of total training for advanced runners (10+ years of background running), he doesn't train runners that way. I've read his training schedules over and over and find that he has a small increase in the total percentage of faster running over the average Joe or Jane runner. And, he schedules periods of training during the year that are very low intensity, high volume, with no specific or a small amount of specific quality training. During specific phases of training the total volume of slow/easy running is about 75%, while special or specific constitutes the remaining 25%. For example, during the 12 weeks prior to a marathon, the schedules of his runners show about 7-9 easy runs of an about an hour, out of a total of 12-13 workouts per week, and usually about 2, sometimes 3, of the workouts are "moderate" paced distance runs or progression runs (which according to Canova's descriptions start at a jog for several km and progress to about Marathon Pace just before the finish and sometimes the last km or two are about half-marathon pace, but overall the run is not hard.

Here's an example of specific preparation for one of Canova's runners, prior to a peak half-marathon race:
http://www.bunnhill.com/BobHodge/Traini ... odgers.htm
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Re: Marathon Help to Crack 2:30

Post by TexNav » Wed Jun 08, 2011 1:49 pm

One other comment that Canova has made before was something to the effect that even in his elite runners, a scheduled training plan will end up deviating from its original form by about 50%. It kind of helps put a perspective on how one handles training load, expectations, changes, and those disappointments faced at times by  the "regular" runner who works, has a family, etc. - many more variables and stressors to contend with as opposed to one who trains for a living. It again appears even the elites need a manageable (and flexible) training plan.

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Re: Marathon Help to Crack 2:30

Post by ap4305 » Wed Jun 08, 2011 2:10 pm

[quote="TexNav"]
One other comment that Canova has made before was something to the effect that even in his elite runners, a scheduled training plan will end up deviating from its original form by about 50%. It kind of helps put a perspective on how one handles training load, expectations, changes, and those disappointments faced at times by  the "regular" runner who works, has a family, etc. - many more variables and stressors to contend with as opposed to one who trains for a living. It again appears even the elites need a manageable (and flexible) training plan.
[/quote]

Absolutely!  The actual plan itself is often less important than the thought process underlying the plan, as having a robust thought process underneath allows for the synthesis of the countless individual variables that the originally written plan cannot account for.
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Schebo

Re: Marathon Help to Crack 2:30

Post by Schebo » Wed Jun 08, 2011 3:05 pm

[quote="Tinman"]
Though Canova states that specific work must constitute a high percentage of total training for advanced runners (10+ years of background running), he doesn't train runners that way. I've read his training schedules over and over and find that he has a small increase in the total percentage of faster running over the average Joe or Jane runner. And, he schedules periods of training during the year that are very low intensity, high volume, with no specific or a small amount of specific quality training. During specific phases of training the total volume of slow/easy running is about 75%, while special or specific constitutes the remaining 25%. For example, during the 12 weeks prior to a marathon, the schedules of his runners show about 7-9 easy runs of an about an hour, out of a total of 12-13 workouts per week, and usually about 2, sometimes 3, of the workouts are "moderate" paced distance runs or progression runs (which according to Canova's descriptions start at a jog for several km and progress to about Marathon Pace just before the finish and sometimes the last km or two are about half-marathon pace, but overall the run is not hard.

Here's an example of specific preparation for one of Canova's runners, prior to a peak half-marathon race:
http://www.bunnhill.com/BobHodge/Traini ... odgers.htm
[/quote]

Sometimes when I read what Canova writes, I get the impression that he wants it to sound like he is doing something really unique and new, but when you read the actual schedules it looks at lot like the way elite runners have trained for the last 40 years.
Running long and fast in training is certainly nothing new. Long distance runners have been doing that for ages.

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Re: Marathon Help to Crack 2:30

Post by ATimmins » Wed Jun 08, 2011 5:34 pm

Unfortunatly we can talk alot about running, but in the grand scheme of things we cannot reinvent the wheel.  All running boils down to some form of volume + intervals + sustained effort.  We can tweak each one to our needs and our race specific needs, but ultimately we are all doing the same things. 

I sometimes wonder how much better one workout is vs another, or ultimately do they both get us fit, we as humans just prefer one over the other, and feel that it is the "secret workout" that everyone else should be doing.
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Re: Marathon Help to Crack 2:30

Post by ap4305 » Wed Jun 08, 2011 6:13 pm

[quote="ATimmins"]
I sometimes wonder how much better one workout is vs another, or ultimately do they both get us fit, we as humans just prefer one over the other, and feel that it is the "secret workout" that everyone else should be doing.
[/quote]

Even if we found the "secret workout" we still must determine whether it is appropriate for the particular runner at the particular time, which itself demands a certain level of assessment and diagnosis.  I'd agree that all the good methods/programs are variations on the same theme...whether they actually produce results depends on how they are applied to the needs of each individual runner, which is based on a broader inquiry into the athlete's overall state of being at the present moment.   
Allan Phillips
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Tinman athlete since 2003
www.ventanapt.physio
IG: @thekettlebelldoc

Wellpark

Re: Marathon Help to Crack 2:30

Post by Wellpark » Thu Jun 09, 2011 9:50 am

It's not complicated!

Lydiard said that the combination of a workout mattered less than reaching a point of fatigue required on that day. He stated that we should feel 'ready to go again' at the end of sessions and he encouraged us to train to reach a fitness level where we can run long distances effortlessly.

We clearly need to condition ourselves to reach that state, however if Lydiard could do that with 50 year old buisness men who lacked a running background, why do we make such a hard job of achieving something similar for ourselves?

It's all about context and patience.

great post.

Wellpark

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Re: Marathon Help to Crack 2:30

Post by Tinman » Thu Jun 09, 2011 10:16 am

Wellpark -

Nicely said!

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Re: Marathon Help to Crack 2:30

Post by running26point2 » Mon Jan 26, 2015 5:16 pm

WoW had to read some of the stuff I did! You see when you become complacent you stop shooting for more.

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Re: Marathon Help to Crack 2:30

Post by Run4ms » Mon Jan 26, 2015 11:43 pm

running26point2 wrote:WoW had to read some of the stuff I did! You see when you become complacent you stop shooting for more.

You have an update? Man, I actually took the time to read through all of this and will have to reread some notes - so much great detail.

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Re: Marathon Help to Crack 2:30

Post by running26point2 » Thu Jan 29, 2015 12:34 am

Got a corneal transplant in Dec 2012, Ran late 2013 around December ran the BCS marathon 2:44:?? then did the next weekend 2:56 in McAllen, then started back up in 2014 ran Boston horrible 2:46.... Have 12 weeks till Boston but currently fighting Posterior Tibial Tendinitis.

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