help me plan my season

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ddtspir06
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help me plan my season

Post by ddtspir06 » Tue May 18, 2010 7:58 pm

So I'm planning to race a 10 mile race in the fall time. so i have a good 22 weeks to train. I broke my season up into phases similar to jack daniels and macmillian. take a look at it and please give some helpful feedback. this is my first time racing longer than a 10k. but i feel im better suited for these longer distances.

Recovery: 1-2 weeks easy totally on feel
Base: 4 weeks. main workouts will be progression runs and strides
Phase II: 6 weeks. Q1 (quality workout) some type of  rep workout. (short fast stuff with plenty of recovery) this is jack daniel philosophy where he introduces speed early in the season. Q2 alternate between tinman tempo run and his CV interval.
Phase III: 4 weeks. Q1 v02 max stuff (hard intervals 1k, and 1200 meters rep at 5k pace). Q2. alternate between tinman tempo and CV interval or a traditional 20 min tempo.
Phase IV: 6 weeks. Q1 long interval (2 mile or 2k close to 10k pace or slightly faster). Q2. same as phase III.
Taper: 2 weeks than race.

kpt4321

Re: help me plan my season

Post by kpt4321 » Wed May 19, 2010 1:32 pm

Some general comments below.  I'm not an expert, but this has been some of my experience.

-4 weeks is not enough to build a base.  That said, if you already have a good base, 4 weeks spent getting used to running more volume and transitioning into harder workouts makes some sense to me.

-While I like a lot of Daniels work, I don't fully understand the early-season workouts of only short fast stuff (he calls it "R" pace) with long rests.  At that point in the season, I like to mix in lots of stamina work (tempos, progression runs, etc) with some shorter faster stuff (be it strides, daniels "R" pace, or Lydard-esque hills).  I wouldn't, personally, do a workout with only short fast stuff.  Early this year, for example, I was doing a weekly rotation of a long run, a 20-30 minute tempo, and a hill day where I ran some reps of ~60s hills, and some faster reps of ~30s hills, during a longer run.

-I'm not sure I'd start doing VO2max stuff in "phase 3" and then drop it for phase 4.  I would do that work closer to a race, if I was racing 3k-8k distances, but further out from a 10M, I'm not so sure.  I'd definitely do work at 5k pace, but I wouldn't do a full workout's volume at that pace, I'd combine it with work at 10k pace, CV pace, you get the idea.  For example, 4x1200 or 5x1000 at CV + 2-4x800 @ 5k, or 2x1600 @ 20k + 2x1200 @ 10k + 2x800 @ 5k.  You can tweak reps and distances to suit yourself, but you get the idea at least.

-I would definitely not taper for 2 weeks for a 10 mile race, unless I was running some obscene amount of weekly mileage (like 120 mpw).  I'm not sure it would even take me more than a week to freshen up from ~60-70 mpw with hard workouts, and I wouldn't cut the volume that much, just some of the intensity.

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Re: help me plan my season

Post by ddtspir06 » Wed May 19, 2010 3:02 pm

The reason i only am doing 4 weeks of basing is because i have just completed a season of approx 6 months of mileage between the 50-60 mile range. I was just going to reduce this mileage down for 2 weeks taking a few days off and running really easy(hence my recovery phase). then building back up. I figure 4 weeks will be good enough time base off of this.

What Daniels emphasis with the early fast stuff is to get ones running economy more efficient. By doing short stuff fast, but not hard, one improves running economy and power. Also I'm more of a slow twitch guy so I think working on speed early season will benefit me more than speed at end of season. i tired the traditional approach where I start to hammer a lot of speed at the end of the season and my races usually ends up pretty bad.

Your suggestion of incorporating CV pace with v02 max stuff in Phase III seems like a really good idea. I will definitely incorporate this into my training. thanks for the suggestion!

As for the tapering, I will take that into consideration as well, but I do think I need to drop mileage a little bit. maybe 10 below my average for a week or 2 before the final race.

My whole approach using this type of training is to get comfortable with my running fast, so that when I run my goal pace 10 mile it will feel easy. To make sure I have enough endurance I circulated a lot of Tinman workouts as my secondary workout, be that CV interval or long tempo runs. by using this approach I will hopefully be ready come race day.

Also thanks for posting your advice.

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Re: help me plan my season

Post by Tinman » Wed May 19, 2010 3:11 pm

The problem with working on economy reps is this: just because you improve economy doesn't mean you improve performance. Yeah, that's right - better economy does not gaurantee better performance times. I have a print-copy of a study that shows that, somewhere at home. When I get a chance, I'll look for the paper.

My friends, if you can take this in, please focus on two things: velocity at Vo2 max and how long you can sustain velocity at Vo2 max. Essentially, you have to improve cardiac capacity and you have to improve power at your LT2 (OBLA, VT2, or maximum lactate steady state - all are about the same). Economy is by far a smaller deal than people make it out to be. Power at LT2/VT2 is extremely predictive running performance from 3k to the marathon, with 5k to the half-marathon being over 90% predictive of one's time.

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kpt4321

Re: help me plan my season

Post by kpt4321 » Wed May 19, 2010 3:18 pm

ddtspir06 wrote: The reason i only am doing 4 weeks of basing is because i have just completed a season of approx 6 months of mileage between the 50-60 mile range. I was just going to reduce this mileage down for 2 weeks taking a few days off and running really easy(hence my recovery phase). then building back up. I figure 4 weeks will be good enough time base off of this.
I agree with this.  It sounds like you already have some base, so it's really just a rest period of easy running before your next buildup than a base.
What Daniels emphasis with the early fast stuff is to get ones running economy more efficient. By doing short stuff fast, but not hard, one improves running economy and power. Also I'm more of a slow twitch guy so I think working on speed early season will benefit me more than speed at end of season. i tired the traditional approach where I start to hammer a lot of speed at the end of the season and my races usually ends up pretty bad.
Don't worry, I know well what Daniels says about his R-pace stuff. :)  I was flipping through his book a day or two ago, actually!

I agree with his basic idea about fast but easy stuff for running economy, form, etc.  My only problem is with devoting an entire workout (1 of 2 per week) to this for a period of quite a few weeks.  I, personally, would want to utilize that workout for development of stamina/strength as well, thus combining some fast short stuff at the end with some more "traditional" reps like cruise intervals, CV reps, etc.  However, I'd really like to hear what some of the other guys think about this.
As for the tapering, I will take that into consideration as well, but I do think I need to drop mileage a little bit. maybe 10 below my average for a week or 2 before the final race.
Sounds reasonable.  Sometimes when people talk about a 2-week taper, they mean cutting mileage quite a bit, like 50% the second week, and that just seems crazy to me, especially at 50-60 mpw for a 10-miler.  Cutting back a more moderate amount is very reasonable, I think.  Tinman has a lot of experience with this, through training many runners, so I'm interested in what he has to say.

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Re: help me plan my season

Post by ddtspir06 » Wed May 19, 2010 4:24 pm

[quote="Tinman"]
The problem with working on economy reps is this: just because you improve economy doesn't mean you improve performance. Yeah, that's right - better economy does not gaurantee better performance times. I have a print-copy of a study that shows that, somewhere at home. When I get a chance, I'll look for the paper.

My friends, if you can take this in, please focus on two things: velocity at Vo2 max and how long you can sustain velocity at Vo2 max. Essentially, you have to improve cardiac capacity and you have to improve power at your LT2 (OBLA, VT2, or maximum lactate steady state - all are about the same). Economy is by far a smaller deal than people make it out to be. Power at LT2/VT2 is extremely predictive running performance from 3k to the marathon, with 5k to the half-marathon being over 90% predictive of one's time.

Tinman
[/quote]

I remember reading a copy of peak performance and Jack Daniels had a study for elite women time for 3k. They all had different v02 but their times were remarkably similar. He contribute this to their running economy. Also didn't shorter(i think it was shorter could be another elite, i don't remember exactly who) have a relatively low v02 max but had great running economy?

When you say that the key is to work on, "velocity at Vo2 max and how long you can sustain velocity at Vo2 max," I think I do work on that by keeping it in my secondary workout the entire season. I'm new to this site and your training philosophy, so sorry if what I say doesnt make sense. But I would greatly appreciate it if you help tell me where I can adjust my training to make it more optimum. I feel doing the same type of workout all season can be very detrimental so I try and periodize my season.

Also the rep paces are going to be more like farleks (example 4-7 sets of 2x35 sec pick up w/2 min jog + 1x70 sec pick up w/3.5 min jog). So im not hammering these reps. just like a powerful stride. Or instead of these reps I change it to my lydaird style hill phase. where I do same thing but with  combo set of 30sec uphill + 1 min uphill.

hopefully this make sense and thanks for your input.

runmoose215

Re: help me plan my season

Post by runmoose215 » Wed May 19, 2010 4:48 pm

DDT -

I'm glad you brought this up.  In my personal experience (20 years+) I have noticed that short reps (200-500s) get me into racing shape quickly.  I do not know why this is.  I've had great success by focusing on this fairly early in my training cycles (15:03 for 5k last summer) with very little stamina training involved (3 weeks worth, but before then 2-3 races).  Of course I had a fair amount of weekly volume (roughly 80-90 miles/wk) and usually did some sort of tempo or long reps (if no race) but never left out the short reps.  It worked quite well and especially after I added stamina training too it, is when I dropped the above time.

This got me thinking that for someone who is heavy slow-twitch like myself that tempo and mileage alone don't cut it.  I need to stress my weakness, my anaerobic system with a small dosage of short reps and then I feel like a totally new and different runner.  I believe that my economy improved by doing so which in turn was effective at all different levels.  I'm not trying to contradict anything said, but like you just trying to make sense of everything.  That's what's great about this site.  I never use to post, but like the fact that here you are welcomed and Tinman does a great job of explaining things.

Moose

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Re: help me plan my season

Post by ap4305 » Wed May 19, 2010 6:31 pm

[quote="ddtspir06"]

I remember reading a copy of peak performance and Jack Daniels had a study for elite women time for 3k. They all had different v02 but their times were remarkably similar. He contribute this to their running economy. Also didn't shorter(i think it was shorter could be another elite, i don't remember exactly who) have a relatively low v02 max but had great running economy?

[/quote]

Economy training in running is largely a matter of economics....how are you going to distribute your training resources (time and energy) to the areas where they will be most effective.  Kpt touched on this earlier in the thread.  Economy training has its place in any training program, and I certainly wouldn't dispute any pubished research of Dr. Jack Daniels.  The issue is really in the training application.  Bottom line is that a full "repetition" workout is often overkill and neglects more critical aspects of performance. 

You can get nearly all of your economy benefits by tacking on some short and fast reps to the end of tempo runs, CV workouts, or VO2 max workouts.  There is nothing inherently wrong with devoting an entire workout to short and fast reps...but why do that if you can get nearly the same benefits in that realm of performance AND touch on other more important dimensions of performance with a tempo run or CV workout that adds 4-6 x 200m at the end? 

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Re: help me plan my season

Post by Tinman » Wed May 19, 2010 8:17 pm

Indeed, that's my philosophy: Add short, fast reps in small quantity to the end of longer interval workouts or tempos; if the goal is improved economy at fast speeds. It doesn't take much to influence changes in economy, and economy is fairly speed specific. Why do long distance runners have better economy at slower speeds? Uh, probably because they do more long distance running at slow speeds. Yeah, it's possible long distance runners self-selected to run long distances, slowly, but that argument further emphasizes economy is, more or less, genetically linked.

Even Jack D. will tell you that among a homogenous (same) group of talented runners, economy can be excellent, while VO2 max is low; economy could be poor, while VO2 max is high. They tend to be opposite in dimension amoung runners of similar skill level. Again, this eludes to genetic influence. Those who have more slow fibers (motor units) will have been economy at slow to moderate speeds than those who have more fast fibers. The opposite is true for faster speeds.

Part of improvements in economy have nothing to do with one's legs. In fact, research says the improved ventilatory ability (breathing ability) accounts for 25-70% of the improvements in economy (see "Improved running economy following intensified training correlates with reduced ventilatory demands" by Franch, Jasper, et al in Med & Sci in Sport & Exercise, volume 30(8), August, 1998, p. 1250-1256.).

The study mentioned above compared the training effects of three groups:

(1) a fast continous distance group - running about 20-30 minutes at 93% of HR max).

(2) Long Interval group - at 94% of HR max

(3) Short, high speed interval group - about 400m speed for the runners, I estimate. This group average 92% of HR max during training.


The result showed some economy improvement in the distance group and the long interval group (by about 3%), with a nonsignificant changes in economy for the fast repetition group. (guess this suggests that fast reps may not be a good way to improve economy)

What actually improved during the study? VO2 max - by 5.9% for the fast, continuous distance gorup, 6.0% for the long interval group, and 3.6% for the short, fast rep group.

What about stride length and stride frequency? Surely the fast reps would make you have a longer stride? Nope, no significant changes occured! 

Ventilatory efficiency (think breathing capacity) improved for all groups.

What about stamina? Yep, all three groups improved the ability to run longer at 87% of VO2 max. The first group (fast distance running) nearly doubled the time they could run at that intensity, going from 35.5 minutes before the training to 68.9 minutes following the trainng regimen (a 94% increase in duration at the same, fairly high, intensity). THe Long Interval Training group (reps at ~10k) improved from 36.4 minutes (before training) to 60.9 minutes after training (that's a 67% increase in duration). The third group (fast reps) improved from 36.3 minutes to 59.8 minutes, following training (that's a 64.7% increase in duration).

What about velocity at VO2 max? Yep, all improved. Group 1 improved 9%. Group 2 improved 10%. Group 3 improved just 4%.

Can we apply this information? Yes, combine fast distance running, long interval training, and short, fast rep training. Since short, fast reps didn't really improve economy (as the media tends to claim), we might suggest that we use it to improve overall speed. Fast, continuous running is a great tool for improving all of the measurable components of performance, but who wants to run 20-25 minutes at nearly 100% all-out three times per week? To me, that's torture: I'd much rather run longer intervals at roughly 10k speed or slightly faster) at derive similar benefits but have much less mental stress.

Note that all three groups did some easy distance running during the study, just as they had prior to the study - some 1 hour runs at 78% of HR maximum, 1-3 times per week.

I can tell you, having read many economy studies, that economy is not nearly as good at predicting performance as power or speed at lactate threshold (however you want to call it). If you were a cyclist or a rower, where power can be easily measured, because it is perfectly uninform  (a 100% power output costs twice as much energy as a 50% power out)(velocity or pace or speed are not uniform - running twice as fast doesn't cost twice as much energy), then all we have to do is measure the same power, in the future, and see how long you could sustain it. Or, we could measure the power output at a given RESPIRATORY QUOTIENT, such as 1.0 or 1.05. We could actually do that for running, too, but it's easier to measure with true power.

Anyway, the power you can sustain at 85-100% of Vo2 max is by far the most important thing there is. Do what you have to do, in training, to elevate sustainable power (think CV, since it's 90% of Vo2 max and it won't beat your body up; also about 3-5% slower is great for elevating sustainable power (stamina) too.

Note: Speed comes quickly, so dont' worry about so darn much - just tack on 3-6 x 150-200m at the end of long intervals or tempos, and do that regularly.  Most 5km runners, for example, don't need to run 20 x 200m at 1500m speed - that's not efficient training; heck, it's typically not that efficient for 1500m runners, either!

I've Gotta get some exercise, food, play with my son, and then get some sleep! If this seems like rambling, I am sorry. Just recognize the jist of all this.

Have a good day!

Tinman
Last edited by Tinman on Thu May 20, 2010 12:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: help me plan my season

Post by ddtspir06 » Wed May 19, 2010 10:15 pm

okay i think i understand what you are trying to say. Here is the revise training plan. :D

Recovery: 1-2 weeks easy totally on feel

Base: 4 weeks. main workouts will be progression runs and strides

Phase II: 6 weeks. Q1 CV interval (keep it to like 5k worth) + (a couple of rep 200-300s) 1-2 mile worth
Q2  tinman tempo run

Phase III: 4 weeks. Q1 CV interval (about 8k worth) + v02 max stuff (1ks or 1200 ) 2 mile.
Q2. alternate between tinman tempo or a traditional 20 min tempo. + a couple fast stuff at the end 150-300s.

Phase IV: 6 weeks. Q1 long interval (2 mile or 2k close to 10k pace or slightly faster).
Q2.  alternate between tinman tempo or a traditional 20 min tempo. + a couple fast stuff at the end 150-300s.

Taper: drop 10 miles each week for 2 weeks. (example normal miles 70, so 60, then 50.)

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Re: help me plan my season

Post by ddtspir06 » Wed May 19, 2010 10:45 pm

quick question regarding CV intervals.
if i were to do this on a grass field and go by time instead of distance, should I aim for 3 mins hard with 90 sec. easy? or would I run the appropriate time that it would take me to normally complete a kilometer of CV interval?

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Re: help me plan my season

Post by ddtspir06 » Thu May 20, 2010 1:56 am

another question in regards to CV intervals. What is approximately the optimum amount that one should attempt to complete in a workout? time and/or distance will suffice. Does 20 mins at CV intensity make for an optimum amount?

kpt4321

Re: help me plan my season

Post by kpt4321 » Thu May 20, 2010 6:54 am

I think that the general idea looks good.  I wouldn't get too caught up in the exact length of phases or the workouts within, let them blend together a bit instead of going exactly 6 weeks, than changing workouts, etc.

[quote="ddtspir06"]
Phase III: 4 weeks. Q1 CV interval (about 8k worth) + v02 max stuff (1ks or 1200 ) 2 mile.
Q2. alternate between tinman tempo or a traditional 20 min tempo. + a couple fast stuff at the end 150-300s.
[/quote]

You may be faster/stronger than me, but I know that 8k of CV reps plus 3k of VO2max work would be a VERY hard effort for me, too much for me to do in a single workout.  Now, I'm relatively slow (60min 10-mile), so if you're faster that might be fine, but something to think about.  You'll figure it out the first time you try it anyway.

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Re: help me plan my season

Post by ddtspir06 » Thu May 20, 2010 11:53 am

[quote="kpt4321"]

You may be faster/stronger than me, but I know that 8k of CV reps plus 3k of VO2max work would be a VERY hard effort for me, too much for me to do in a single workout.  Now, I'm relatively slow (60min 10-mile), so if you're faster that might be fine, but something to think about.  You'll figure it out the first time you try it anyway.
[/quote]

I see what you are trying to say. I think if I keep it around 8k-10k range will be good. probably stick more to the former at the beginning and slowly creep toward the 10k range for the total amount of hard running that I do. (probably break it down with 5-8k of CV + 1-2k of v02). I heard that the pace for 10k is not too much different than that to a half marathon. So if i take in this philosophy, it like im training for a 10k.

Thanks for the suggestion I'll be sure to implement this in my training plan.

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Re: help me plan my season

Post by Tinman » Thu May 20, 2010 12:10 pm

DDT -

Is your goal race a 10-miler? If so, you don't need much, if any, Vo2 max training. Rather, work at plus or minus a little of 10-mile race speed. CV is an all-around stamina developer, which emphasizes/develops type 2a (fast oxidative) fibers/motor units, and that would help you greatly for the 10-mile race, but even running 1-mile reps at 10-mile pace or 4-6 seconds faster is perfect training. Longer tempos, too, at 5-10% slower than 10-mile pace would be perfect training for the 10-mile event.

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