Critical Velocity?

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ATimmins
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Critical Velocity?

Post by ATimmins » Mon May 24, 2010 6:50 pm

Tinman and others,

Just as a thought experiment, would this be a descent critical velocity workout for a 31 min 10ker that averages 100mpw



9x800 @ 5:05 w/ 200 rest?
Last edited by ATimmins on Sat May 29, 2010 10:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
Forced into running and loving every minute
1.5 Mile:
First = 13:38
Current = 7:10
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Tchuck
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Re: Critical Velocity?

Post by Tchuck » Mon May 24, 2010 8:28 pm

I think it would be just fine giving you 23 min at CV pace but you don't need to rest for 400m. 200M or 90 sec would be plenty of rest with an easy jog working down to even only a 1 min rest in time.
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ATimmins
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Re: Critical Velocity?

Post by ATimmins » Mon May 24, 2010 8:57 pm

that was a type-0, 200m makes more sence, 1/4 rest.
Forced into running and loving every minute
1.5 Mile:
First = 13:38
Current = 7:10
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Re: Critical Velocity?

Post by ATimmins » Mon May 24, 2010 8:58 pm

It's just funny becuase my 2 favorite workouts lately are 3 x 1600 w/ 800 rest @ 5k pace and 6 x 1600 w/ 200 rest @ Half Pace.

So CV would be exactly in between these 2 workouts.  Meaning 4.5 x 1600 w/ 400 rest at 12k paceish.

Weird.
Forced into running and loving every minute
1.5 Mile:
First = 13:38
Current = 7:10
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Dressed for Success in Brooks - www.brooksrunning.com
Running log - http://www.logarun.com/calendars/atimmins/
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kpt4321

Re: Critical Velocity?

Post by kpt4321 » Mon May 24, 2010 9:20 pm

1 minute of rest at CV pace seems short to me, at least if you're doing longer reps (800m is borderline).

For example, I do 1200m at about CV pace, and I take 400m rest between them (probably 2:15 or so).  This seems about right.

Daniels recommends 1 minute of rest for 5 minutes of cruise interval, which is a significantly slower pace then CV (6:05 vs. 6:15 for me).

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Re: Critical Velocity?

Post by ATimmins » Mon May 24, 2010 10:52 pm

5:05 would be mile pace, so the 800 would take 2:32, so 200 rest would be roughly 1 minute.  So 2.5/1 rest ratio based on time, or 1/4 based on distance.

I love 6 x 1600 @ LT w/ 200 rest for a workout.  Daniels is the man.
Forced into running and loving every minute
1.5 Mile:
First = 13:38
Current = 7:10
Powered by Powerbar - www.powerbar.com
Dressed for Success in Brooks - www.brooksrunning.com
Running log - http://www.logarun.com/calendars/atimmins/
Running Blog - http://www.powerbar.com/blog/atimmins.aspx

rxb

Re: Critical Velocity?

Post by rxb » Tue May 25, 2010 1:25 am

I routinely do 7x1k @ CV pace with 200m recovery; the reps take ~3:30 while the recovery portion is completed within one minute.  (Basically, "light" or "very easy" pace, as per Tinman's charts.)  I have no problem completing these reps and don't feel drained by this workout.  If you start taking a bunch of rest during what is supposed to be a stamina-paced workout, you're not really building stamina. 

kpt4321

Re: Critical Velocity?

Post by kpt4321 » Tue May 25, 2010 8:29 am

[quote="rxb"]
If you start taking a bunch of rest during what is supposed to be a stamina-paced workout, you're not really building stamina.
[/quote]

I don't disagree, but I would argue that CV pace isn't a pure stamina workout, and thus has different requirements, given it works on LT and VO2.

For example, for an 18:00 5k runner, a Daniels T pace workout (for stamina) would be something like repeat miles at 6:15 w/ 1:00 rest, while a VO2max workout might be 800s-1600s at 5:40 with approximately equal rest (ie 800 in 2:50 w/ about the same rest).  CV pace for that same runner is around 6:00-6:05, so it only seems logical that the rest period would fall between that taken for a threshold workout and that taken for VO2max...

I think 1 minute of rest for ATimmins doing 800m reps makes sense, given that he is fairly fast, and his reps are on the shorter side.  However, if you're slower (like me) and doing longer reps, I think that still using 1 minute of rest is not the right thing to do.

Another way to look at it is total rest taken during the workout.  If you do 6x800 w/ 1:00 rest, you rest 5:00 total.  However, if you do 4x1200 with the same rest, you do the same volume (4800m) with only 3:00 rest.  To get the same 5:00 of rest while doing 1200s, you'd need to rest almost 2:00 between reps.

Sorry, I am rambling here, but I think that the topic of rest often gets lost.  We all talk about paces for the intervals, but the length and intensity of the rest period can make a big difference in a workout.

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Re: Critical Velocity?

Post by Tchuck » Tue May 25, 2010 9:00 am

I like to do a progression. If offseason I am doing 3 X 1K CV reps and have races coming in 2 months. I will start with 1:45-2:00 rest and slowly build to 6-7 X 1K and 75  sec rests. Note: I run 25 miles per week. Don't underestimate how you feel? Don't push to rest less.  With ATimmons high miles and the shorter 800M reps, 1 min would be sufficient or progressing towards it I feel.
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Re: Critical Velocity?

Post by Tinman » Tue May 25, 2010 9:00 am

AT -

warm up + 7-9 x 1km at 10k pace plus 0-3 seconds per km (jog 200m recoveries) + 4-5 x 200m at 1500m speed (jog 200m recoveries) + cool down.

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Re: Critical Velocity?

Post by Barney » Tue May 25, 2010 9:09 am

I thoght that I read somewhere Tinman that your rest is ~1:00 for every 1k @ CV pace (1k=1:00 rest, 2k=2:00 rest, etc.)?  I've read so much, I may be confusing this, but this is what I have always followed.  When I'm not "in shape", I sometimes increase the recovery time slightly, as to not make the workout harder than it should be.

Thanks... 

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Re: Critical Velocity?

Post by ATimmins » Tue May 25, 2010 9:25 am

thank you tinman,

So 4.5 Miles at 10k pace with 1/4 recovery is the basic structure, and this workout fits EXACTLY inbetween my vo2 work and my Threshold work.

Interesting.

If my body is use to vo2 and threshold intervals everyweek, is there any foul in doing 2 CV workouts a week instead, or a rotating block of vo2, cv, threshold, vo2, cv, threshold, etc?
Forced into running and loving every minute
1.5 Mile:
First = 13:38
Current = 7:10
Powered by Powerbar - www.powerbar.com
Dressed for Success in Brooks - www.brooksrunning.com
Running log - http://www.logarun.com/calendars/atimmins/
Running Blog - http://www.powerbar.com/blog/atimmins.aspx

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Re: Critical Velocity?

Post by TexNav » Tue May 25, 2010 10:45 am

In the link below if you go down to the "WHAT MAKES UP A CV TRAINING SESSION?", it would appear that your memory serves you well.

http://peakrunningperformance.com/docs/ ... locity.htm

From a timed fartlek standpoint for CV workouts; the work:recovery ratio is typically 15-20 secs for every 60 seconds of work.

On a side note, and just of personal interest, as of late I've started to notice the line of where I can judge current CV/10K pace and effort versus 5K pace for me. At least recently I noticed that whereas 10K pace is closer to a 3:1 ratio, once I use CV "effort" but with a 2:1 - work: recovery ratio, that is almost spot on to my current 5K performance (and yes it is run a bit faster than true CV and therefore probably technically not CV that's just what I still refer to it as).

runmoose215

Re: Critical Velocity?

Post by runmoose215 » Tue May 25, 2010 11:03 am

AT -

We have similar abilities.  I am glad you ask the question as to if there is any benefit in doing two CV workouts a week.  It is my understanding that CV work coupled with Tman Tempo works both ends of (above and below) LT and this is crucial in building your LT to a high level.  If you read anything about Lance Armstrong's training you will find that he does a lot of training around his LT (1-a tad faster 2-at 3-just below).  Doing this along with basic easy aerobic miles should get you 95% there.  I have a friend who just ran 2:12 and he does a weekly CV-LT rep workout, a short hill workout, and two sub-threshold workouts (I would say almost spot on with TT). 

Moose
Last edited by runmoose215 on Tue May 25, 2010 2:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Critical Velocity?

Post by KTJ » Tue May 25, 2010 12:02 pm

Another running board (which I shall leave nameless) has a posting that pops up every few months in response to "how should I train" questions.  Tinman even got a nice mention!  Looks really simple, but effective.  I guess the 12K reps are CV pace, with another run around TT pace, and finally a long run.  How in the world can someone run 5Ks that fast with their fastest reps at only 12K pace???

**********************************

Training through the early months of parenthood is tough but doable. Tinman's schedule is similar and excellent. You could sustain that schedule and improved for a long time training like that. Throw in one or two races per month and you've got a nice recipe.

If you're like me, you may find out that you prefer this type of training to your previous methods. I have been following the same basic schedule for three years now:

M-50 minutes with 7 miles @ aerobic threshold (5:45 pace)
T-50 easy plus striders
W-50 minutes with 3 x 1 mile at 12k pace (90 second rest)
R-50 minutes easy plus striders
F-50 minutes easy plus striders
St-2 hours medium with striders
Sn-50 minutes easy plus striders

On this training, I have run 15:12 5k, 31:30 10k, and a 2:28 marathon---not PRs, but within 2.5%. That is, I'm training at 50% of my former training mileage, but racing at 97.5% of my personal bests. I actually like running again too.

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