Chart and explanation

Featuring TheRunZone?s resident coach Tinman. All participants are welcome to post and reply to topics in this section whether you?re looking for advice, or sharing your own coaching experience.

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wuxcalum
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Re: Chart and explanation

Post by wuxcalum » Wed Sep 21, 2011 9:59 pm

Tinman,

I would like to build on what Maristxccoach mentioned.  You have laid out typical recovery times after races, but what about after workouts?  How does the recovery work in terms of recovering from different types of workouts?  For example take 2 days recovery after an easy workout, 3 days after a medium, 4 days after a hard, etc.

Thanks!

Jimmy

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Re: Chart and explanation

Post by Tinman » Wed Sep 21, 2011 10:03 pm

Maristcoach -

Let me demonstrate how to put the weekly plan together for a high school coach. It's really easy! I set it up for my wife's team, when she coached just one year at Elmira High School in Oregon. Only one kid had run in the summer. The others started from scratch in late August, when official practice started. After a couple of week of introductory training, the set up was basic and repeated several weeks in a row.

Sun - on their own - most kids did not run

Mon - Long, easy run

Tue - shorter, easy run

Wed - CV intervals with short hill reps to follow

Thu - shorter, easy run

Fri - shorter, easy run

Sat - Race

Over and over. The last 2-3 weeks the last rep of the CV interval workout was fast, to sharpen the runners.

Result? 2nd place in the second biggest division at the state XC meet. The team that beat them has a good coach who has 50 kids on the team, and they run year-round. Kudos to him. But, my wife had 8 boys and 5 girls (girls missed going to state by a couple of points). Girls did even have a 5th runner until part-way through the season. One girl split her time between soccer and xc. Top girl for my wife's team placed 5th at state.  Top boys for my wife's team were 6th and 8th place. If my wife had coached those kids for a full year, they would have won the state meet; I am certain. You should have seen the improvements in performance; amazing, steady gains every week.

Simple but effective!

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maristxccoach

Re: Chart and explanation

Post by maristxccoach » Thu Sep 22, 2011 12:57 pm

I think we are all aware of wanting to over do things -- is an approach as simple as this acceptable for 16:30 guys and 19:30 girls running 60ish and 45ish miles a week respectively?  I have moved to 1.5 workouts a week because I don't think we were racing to our potential so I wonder if 1 is better (if racing).

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Re: Chart and explanation

Post by Tinman » Thu Sep 22, 2011 1:21 pm

The runners my wife coached reached 16 low (just over 16 minutes) to 18 low at the state meet; and those runner used the simple method I presented in the last approach. They slowest runners were around 22-23 minutes at the start of the season (about 2-3 weeks into the season) and reached between 17:20 and 18:15 for 5km (one very steep hill was run over twice, about 50m high). The course isn't fast. I saw Galen Rupp run something like 14:55 for 5km on that course in high school, at the state meet. That's not fast for guy who could run well under 4:01.8 for the mile just 4 months earlier.
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Re: Chart and explanation

Post by maristxccoach » Thu Sep 22, 2011 2:23 pm

To keep the conversation rolling here:  did you adjust CV paces every week along with performance gains or did you wait 2-3 weeks like Daniels and others sometimes recommend so that the body can adapt?

Also - why the long run?  A long run always seemed like half a workout to me -- why not half a tinman tempo?  Are they just not recovered enough?

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Re: Chart and explanation

Post by Tinman » Thu Sep 22, 2011 7:16 pm

We (my wife and I) adjusted the paces using a method I thought prudent. First is adjusting the race-times to a reference course. The second step was the average the paces run for the last two races. Since my wife's athletes raced every week, we have references from two races run about 7 days apart.

Example:  Todd ran 16:28 and 16:18 (5km) on two courses, which different in terrain. The weather was about the same for both races. The estimate for the asphalt-equivalent training course was 16:24 and 16:20, given that Todd was using training shoes instead of racing spikes, the road course was faster than the grass course, but Todd was not as fresh for the reps as he was for the races. Then, an average of the two race times was used to determine CV pace reps.  In this example, the times for the two races on grass were not a lot different (10 seconds). In one case, the athletes raced near the Oregon coast on a super hilly course (only my wife's runners and one runner from another team did not walk up the hill; it was that steep). My wife's kids scored something like 1,2,3 5, 7, 8 and 10 for all seven kids that raced on varsity (she only had 8 boys on the team, and one ran the JV race). The winning time was about 17:20, but we did not use that as a reference time for determining CV reps; we adjusted the time to an equivalent on your paved 1km CV course. The estimate: about 70 seconds faster, so 16:10 would be the adjusted, reference, time used for CV reps.

IN the last 3 weeks, I recommended that my wife take the athletes over to the State meet course, which was only about 25-30 minutes drive from the school. She did, and so that were assigned paces that were slower, for CV, than their normal paved route. The State meet course was not fast; it was wet, had long race, has some uneven terrain, and it has a steep hill.  But, in the last 3 weeks the total number of reps was reduced from 6 reps to 5 and 4 and 3 reps. The last rep was run faster than CV pace, but not all out.  What happened? My wife's runners sharpened up for the regional and state meet and performed great.

Regarding the long run vs tempo running on Monday's; that's your choice, either will work.

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Re: Chart and explanation

Post by wuxcalum » Thu Sep 22, 2011 9:15 pm

Tinman,

Is it advisable to do CV reps on a somewhat hilly loop?  My conference and regional courses are on hilly courses this year.  I figured it is important to workout on a loop that simulates racing conditions.  We have been going to a hilly park by our high school to do these workouts.  Obviously I slow down the paces to reflect a more difficult loop.

However, our sectional and state courses are flat and fast.  Thus, I bring the CV work onto the track for the last 2 workouts of the season.  Does this make sense?

Thanks!

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Re: Chart and explanation

Post by Tinman » Fri Sep 23, 2011 12:37 am

If you are uncertain about making it to state as a team, then run CV reps on a hilly training course. Otherwise, if you know you'll make it through to state, train on a course similar to the state course (I assume at Detweiller Park again). Detweiller is deceiving. People say it's falt, but it's not. I raced there and you have to go up a grade for about 300 yards twice, Not it's not steep, but stronger hill runners break away on that hill. I've seen that at Detweiller more than once at the IL state meet. Example, in 1984 David Halle, who was a strong hill runners, pulled away on the hill the second time going up it and won.  In 1985, Jim White pulled away, as did Eddie Slowikowski, on the hill going up it the second time. In 1986 I saw the runner from Niles Notre Dame pull ahead on that hill.

My belief is that it is better to train on a hilly training course, doing CV reps, than on a flat course because the strength of running hills, as well as the ability to relax at a good speed while going downhill is very important to cross-country. An example location for using downhill skills is on the road side of Detweiller Park, as you go past mile #1 and again, later, about about 2.25 miles. You have to lean forward, drop your arms and chin, and flow with the downhill speed. Cross-country can be muddy or wet or in raining weather, which is when stronger runners excel.  If you did your "homework" and trained on hills, your kids will have no trouble in such conditions. Kids who train on the track or flat, smooth surfaces all the time lose rhythm when weather is bad or the terrain is muddy or wet. Cross-country is about stamina, rhythm, and concentration. If your kids have great stamina, can keep their rhythm flowing all the time, and they are able to focus all the time, rather than "fall asleep," then you team will compete very well.

You can always tack on some 200's for quickness, following the CV reps, if you are running slower CV reps on a hilly course. The 200's will help your kids work on quick rhythm, which is actually more important than flat, all-out speed in cross-country.

Take care,

Tinman
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Re: Chart and explanation

Post by wuxcalum » Fri Sep 23, 2011 3:15 pm

Thanks for the great advice, Tinman!

maristxccoach

Re: Chart and explanation

Post by maristxccoach » Sun Sep 25, 2011 10:46 pm

Thank you for the advice as always.  Curious once more -- do you think it prudent to build mileage during the 1st two months of the season still given that there is not a huge training load?  Others say not to adjust mileage since they are doing 2-3 workouts w/ races, but with only one workout when there is a race it seems that total volume could be a variable to play with.  Thoughts? 

I know that with beginners, it is a necessity, but what about the middling types -- 18:30 boys running 25-30m or 22:00 girls running 20-25m? 

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Re: Chart and explanation

Post by Tinman » Sun Sep 25, 2011 11:57 pm

Yes, you can raise mileage during the season using my training method because you aren't overworking runners with too many high quality workouts per week, as you would in the traditional training approach.
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Greg

Re: Chart and explanation

Post by Greg » Thu Sep 29, 2011 2:06 pm

Hi, I am new to the forum and have been coaching for five years.  I was introduced to run zone through Paul P., as I have been on fastrunningblog.com for some time. 

I have fallen into the trap, as many have, of doing most of our speed work at race pace.  We have had some good success as a team, but I feel that the biggest problem with race pace training is that peaking can be very unpredictable.

Tinman, I do have a couple questions with the schedule you described:

Sun - on their own - most kids did not run

Mon - Long, easy run

Tue - shorter, easy run

Wed - CV intervals with short hill reps to follow

Thu - shorter, easy run

Fri - shorter, easy run

Sat - Race

If you want to keep the long run instead of a tempo on Monday, do you ever suggest inserting the tempo any other days?  I am a fan of tempos, but I do not want to sacrifice the long run.  Next, on what days would you suggest doing strides?  Also, and this may belong on another topic, what would you change in this schedule for track season? 

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Re: Chart and explanation

Post by Tinman » Thu Sep 29, 2011 3:15 pm

Greg -

I recommend that you do some easy tempo running as a warm up to CV intervals, or do a long tempo run in lieu of intervals. Finish the workout with either fast striders or hill reps.

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Re: Chart and explanation

Post by ap4305 » Wed Oct 05, 2011 2:33 pm

Online version of the article with Pete Mcgill and Tinman is now available.

http://www.runningtimes.com/Article.asp ... leID=24063

incarnadine

Re: Chart and explanation

Post by incarnadine » Wed Oct 05, 2011 6:15 pm

Thanks!

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