Tinman Tempo Pace

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dkggpeters

Tinman Tempo Pace

Post by dkggpeters » Wed Sep 14, 2011 11:32 am

Is Tinman Tempo pace roughly equal to MP or halfway between HMP and MP?

The reason why I ask is due to comparing his pace vs Daniels and McMillans:

Daniels states a 3:20 Marathon would be equivalent to a 21:00 5k which according to the Tinman Tempo pace would be 7:38/mile which is MP.

McMillan states a 3:20 Marathon would be equivalent to a 20:30 5k which according to the Tinman Tempo pace would be 7:28/mile which is roughly the midpoint between MP and HMP.

If you based your Tinman Paces off of Marathon times rather then 5k which of the above is correct.

I know that it is easy to compute a 5k off a 2,400m time trial, but was just  curious as to the thoughts of the people whom train using Tinman's methods.

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Re: Tinman Tempo Pace

Post by ap4305 » Wed Sep 14, 2011 11:45 am

Yes, for most people Tinman tempo pace will lie between HMP and MP.  He has an exact formula, but in most cases you can estimate in that range if you aren't able to consult a chart. 

There's really no right or wrong per se...If you are doing Tinman training, then use Tinman's paces.  If you train by Daniels, I'd say use his paces.  Same goes for any system or coach, acutally.
Allan Phillips
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Re: Tinman Tempo Pace

Post by KTJ » Wed Sep 14, 2011 1:31 pm

Don't worry so much about the exact times.  Tinman, Daniels, et al, will tell you these are just suggested paces.  If you're feeling like crap, then back off.  If you're feeling great and the pace is too easy, feel free to speed it up a little.  A wise man once said, "Grasshopper not think Kung Fu, grasshopper FEEL kung fu."

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Re: Tinman Tempo Pace

Post by ap4305 » Wed Sep 14, 2011 2:22 pm

Tinman tempo pace offers a blend of the science with intuitive feel that guys like malmo (the great George Malley) have long preached.  Too much adherence to numbers can blind us from sound intuition, but we sometimes need numbers to slow us down.  What feels good in the short term might have negative unintended consequences in the long term. 
Allan Phillips
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IG: @thekettlebelldoc

dkggpeters

Re: Tinman Tempo Pace

Post by dkggpeters » Wed Sep 14, 2011 4:16 pm

Thanks for the responses.

I always felt that a tempo should go strictly by feel.  I know what my HR ranges are for tempos and generally start at the low end and then go by feel from there.  I do agree that getting caught up in pace can be bad as it can cause you to turn it into a race or a feeling that you had to be the previous tempo pace that you ran.

About 20 years ago I did a lot of competitive cycling and did a lot of LT Threshold work then.  The nice thing is I would just finds a long mountain road (was fortunate to have the Santa Monica Mountains with 6 miles grades at 6 to 7% avg) and would base the effort off of feel and HR.  I liked it because I never timed the climbs, so as a result, there was no comparison to the previous weeks efforts.  I am trying to pull this philosophy over to my running now but is difficult due to having the data too readily available due to the Garmin.  It is always easier said then done.

I was trying to get a feel from people that use the Tinman Tempos what they felt the pace equates to.  It appears to be between HMP and MP which I suspected and is the case for me.  I still have a habit of running them too fast though (slightly faster then HMP) and need to learn to slow them down a bit.

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Re: Tinman Tempo Pace

Post by Tchuck » Wed Sep 14, 2011 8:48 pm

Also, a general guideline is about 50-60 sec slower than your current 5K race pace or what you feel you could run on that day.
Those who try, fail! Those who do what it takes to succeed, will SUCCEED!

Ninetonite

Re: Tinman Tempo Pace

Post by Ninetonite » Thu Sep 15, 2011 11:22 am

Tom is always reminding me that the CV/RC and TT workouts need to consider temperature/humidity, surface, how you feel, what you ran the day before etc.  There's a bit of a grey area around what most of us refer to as "tempo" workouts although he tends to prefer the faster end of the spectrum around 10km pace. 

RunningTy

Re: Tinman Tempo Pace

Post by RunningTy » Thu Sep 15, 2011 12:06 pm

There's an old article (1989) by Peter Snell that is often quoted on the 'net.  It claims that interval training is far superior to tempo training for a 10k race.  Here's one of many sites referring to it:

http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/0004.htm

I'm sure many of you are familiar with this article, but I cannot find any thread on the board that discusses it.  What's your opinion (or what's common wisdom) about his results?  And if he's correct, why should we continue running tempos?  (I just ask, I don't have a clue...)

dkggpeters

Re: Tinman Tempo Pace

Post by dkggpeters » Thu Sep 15, 2011 12:38 pm

A couple of reasons why I still run tempos:

1.)  I am training for a Marathon and tempo runs are superior to intervals.  (Roles are flipped as the physiology is different for a marathon vs 10k)

2.)  Running both (I now use CV instead of intervals) provides even better adaptations in my opinion then just running intervals.  The study did not include individuals gains that ran both every week.  They could have improved 2.5 minutes vs 2.1 minutes.

3.)  Different people also respond to training methods differently sometimes.  I know for a fact that I respond well to tempo training.  In cycling, that is how I got in shape quickly.  Intervals would tend to make me peak earlier and burnout where I could do tempos year round.  Intervals also did not carry over to endurance as much as tempos did for me.

Dave

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Re: Tinman Tempo Pace

Post by ap4305 » Thu Sep 15, 2011 1:47 pm

[quote="Bush runner"]
It claims that interval training is far superior to tempo training for a 10k race. 
[/quote]

Is there a rule that requires us to choose between one or the other?  I don't know why someone would think of a study that tries to completely discredit one type of workout in favor of another, as if we only had the choice of one. 

The type of thinking in that article is in part what led US distance running into a 10+ year abyss in the late 80s thru the early 2000s.  Fortunately, we're currently in a better place now that more coaches and scientists are seeking ways to achieve the optimal blend of all performance elements, rather than trying to validate one extreme or another. 
Last edited by ap4305 on Thu Sep 15, 2011 1:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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dkggpeters

Re: Tinman Tempo Pace

Post by dkggpeters » Thu Sep 15, 2011 2:10 pm

ap4305 +1

You bring up a good point.  In the late 80's to around 2000 the High School times were a lot slower then form the 70's and early 80's.  It was around the late 80's when quality over quantity was being touted.  Run lower miles and more intervals, yet the times deteriorated.  In the 70's and early 80's we incorporated a lot of volume in our training including tempos and intervals.  It wasn't until the 2000's when this training philosophy was brought back that we started seeing times drop again.

Additionally, you can find a study that provides a positive spin on just about any type of training out there.  The proof is in the pudding, and that happens to be times in races.

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Re: Tinman Tempo Pace

Post by Tinman » Thu Sep 15, 2011 2:12 pm

Blending intensities (from slow to fast) is always better, in my opinion, than just using one training tool. Those who follow my posts know that I recommend CV work as a year-round training tool. Think of it as 8km-12km pace training. If you run at your current CV pace (or, roughly 10km pace), you can do this work nearly every week of the year. You can use Tempos too, or RC/LT intervals too, year-round. And, why not include striders too, for both leg strength and ease of running (measured as economy by physiologists)?

The problem with Dr. Snell's study was one of isolation, but that's not a knock on his study. He just separated groups: one performed Tempo work and the other short intervals at 5k-10km pace. Subjects trained using one or the other, but not both or a mix.  In my view, it would be interesting to study three additional groups. (1) A group that did one tempo workout and one interval workout per week. (2) A group that did tempo work twice a week but did another "strider" workout; say 8-16 x 100m at 3k-1500m speed, to improve leg strength and economy. (3) A group that did tempo work for half the study and interval work the second half of the study.

As a coach and long-time runner, I believe that a mix of training is better than a isolation approach. The number one reason for mixing training, as I have stated for over 20 years, is to prevent injuries. Just yesterday this concept was validated once again, by a reverse or poor result. A runner who has a lot of talent did not include a blend of training intensities in the summer. He mostly did distance training and some basic "threshold" work per his collegiate coach's instructions. Then, the talented runner, like others on the collegiate team, started doing hard interval work when formal cross-country training began. By hard I don't necessarily mean very fast work, but some of it was. Hard can also mean a lot of medium-high intensity work that pushes a runner into severe fatigue and traumatizes a runner's legs. If that runner has been injured in the past, the chances are high that he or she will become injured again by "hard" workouts that differ substantially from what they have been doing in the previous few weeks. That was the case for this particular runner. The workouts were significantly hard (meaning faster and longer) than what he was used to. Guess what happened!  He became injured, and now has a stress fracture.

A friend of mine who is an excellent massage therapist, and he was a competitive runner fro 30 years, called yesterday. He mentioned that he is massaging some high-level collegiate runners who are on scholarship. One of his first comments was that I was right about most talented runners and how fragile they are. I had told him about my conversation with Adam Goucher a few years ago, at the Nike Campus, where a couple of my wife's high school runners were competing in the "Border-Clash" race (Oregon vs Washington high school runners, the best, were competing). I told Adam that he was like a thoroughbred racehorse. He was crazy talented and high level performances, relative to the average Joe or Jane runner, come quickly and easily to him. Furthermore, I said the Bill Dellinger's old saying was very true for runners like Adam. Bill, a bronze medalist in the 1964 Olympic Games 5000m race and a long-time, quite successful coach at the University of Oregon (coaching Prefontaine, Salazar, Chapa, and Centrowitz, just to name a few), said that his number one job was to "keep his runners healthy." He said that keeping them injury free and "healthy" allowed their talent to shine. No training plan that injures a runners is worth the risk of pushing the limits. An injured runner is dysfunctional. I told Adam that his talent was so high that all he had to do was train well within himself and stay "healthy," as Dellinger had said. I am not sure if Adam listened fully or not. The race was going on and he may have had his mind on that. But he did nod his head and it seemed like he was catching the concept I was offering him. I think Adam struggled because he continued to push his limits, and he repeatedly became injured anytime he pushed too hard.

Back to my story about my friend's words, regarding the athletes on the D1 team that were injured so early into the xc season. His message was that just 3 weeks into the season they were injured and unlikely to return to competition this season. Furthermore, he described the training that those athletes did this summer, and it was clear to me that a lack of integrated training hurt those runners. They didn't do enough faster work during the summer, putting in mostly mileage, and the severe/hard workouts of the early season injured them. The CHANGE was too radical. That's the point. It's not that runners need to do extensive, hard interval training in the off-season; it's that their legs need to be used to running with more speed/intensity. They can do a short interval or fartlek or hill rep workout a couple times per week in the summer and that would do amazing things for them. They would transition easily to more extensive work that fall cross-country training requires. Much of the shock to most runner's legs is due to the specific strength demands that long, hard interval training requires. It's the lack of specific strength and coordination that causes the injuries, I posit.

Regards,

Tinman

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Last edited by Tinman on Thu Sep 15, 2011 2:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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PVece

Re: Tinman Tempo Pace

Post by PVece » Fri Sep 23, 2011 10:58 am

I'll second what Tinman said about fragility and training within one's own limits being the key to success.

I've learned more about my own running by coaching.  My accumen for training athletes aside, the biggest thing I've tried to impart to them is to be 100% honest with yourself.  Realize you're not invincible, and that there's no medal for being the fittest guy in the stands. (and that running easy on your easy days doesn't mean you're "weak", it means you're working harder because you're making a concerted effort to do one more thing correctly).

For instance, last year when I began training for the 2k10 Chicago Marathon I felt a bout of plantar fasciitis coming on.  It happened so early in the training block (end of May) that I figured it'd work itself out.  Lived on the golf ball rolling/calf stretching regimen religiously.  Never got better (although it did have its good days).  Workouts were going well aside from the heel problem, but it got to the point where other than running, I was walking like a 90 year old man.  Raced a half marathon in early August and that was it....Chicago ruined. 

Wasted the best fitness of my post-collegiate life b/c I thought I was superman and could run my way through anything (as if two metatarsal stress fractures and compartment syndrome in each leg hadn't tought me otherwise).  Certainly not a good feeling driving two of your best friends to the airport to head to Chicago and run big PRs while I went home to jump on the Worldwide Couch Tour.  The ugly part of it was I only had myself to blame, and that if I followed the advice I would've given any of my athletes, I most likely would've made it to the line w/ a good opportunity to drop a 240-45.

Objective 1 always has to be to get to the starting line!

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