Looking for Advice/Feedback

Featuring TheRunZone?s resident coach Tinman. All participants are welcome to post and reply to topics in this section whether you?re looking for advice, or sharing your own coaching experience.

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ap4305
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Re: Looking for Advice/Feedback

Post by ap4305 » Wed Apr 25, 2012 11:27 am

Read this thread below.  It will get you up to speed on the basic concepts underlying the Tinman system.  Great thread with contributions from one of the most underrated runners in history, Knut Kvalheim. (I always laugh at the Pre-worship, since Knut ran for the same team, actually followed the training plan rather than hammering every day, and ended up faster than Pre at basically the same age in the 5000m...)

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read. ... 770&page=0

In short, you'll find many elements of the Tinman system in the Bowerman/Dellinger system, who took Lydiard's basic principles (a lot of which Lydiard took from the likes of Van Akken, et al) and advanced them into modern application.   
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Re: Looking for Advice/Feedback

Post by ATimmins » Wed Apr 25, 2012 1:10 pm

I have followed a few schedules and the best shape i have gotten into was based off of a standard tinman schedule.

Nothing is black and white, but in general there is two phases in a tinman shedule.  Phase 1 is sometimes called the 10k phase but i like to think about it as the getting fit stage.  You hit alot of paces in this phase but in general are focusing on good volume with workouts that focus on strength and endurance.  A standard rotating schedule may be:


Week 1 = CV reps one day, Tinman tempo another, and long run
Week 2 = Minutes on day, Half marathon paced reps, and a long run

That may look quite plain, and it is, but it hits all the systems without digging into any one for two long.  It raises your general fitness, and you can continue this phase as long as you like.  You will even race well off of it from 5k up to the half marathon.

The second phase greatly depends on your event.  You and an 800 runner may follow the same schedule above, but when entering phase II you would start to focus on race specific demands.  If you are getting ready for a 5k you would start to see slightly longer 5k reps, and more focus around that pace.  A Marathoner would start longer workouts and higher weekly mileage. An 800 guy would start doing faster reps.
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Re: Looking for Advice/Feedback

Post by ATimmins » Wed Apr 25, 2012 1:15 pm

A lydiard schedule is closely the same in theory, he was just much more cut and dry about it.  He used the 100mpw phase to build fitness on all of his runners, (basically lots of aerobic miles and hard 10 milers) and then they would enter the hill phase and sharpening phase. 

Tinman's schedule keeps all systems humming and transitioning to the sharpening or "peaking" phase is less abrupt. 

Most people are timid to start a tinman schedule because there is no glory workouts.  You don't see 8 x 1000 @ 5k w/ 200 rest uphill in a snow storm.  But tinman athletes also usually arn't watching the race from the sideline due to injury or burned out 4 weeks prior to their goal race. 

Interestingly enough, i ran my best 5k (15:16, so not the greatest but im still happy with it) off of no 5k workouts and just doing a tinman tempo and cv reps for about 2 months.  I never focused on the 5k so i never entered a 5k phase, but you can understand how much "being fit and not burnt" plays into this.

 
Forced into running and loving every minute
1.5 Mile:
First = 13:38
Current = 7:10
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Dressed for Success in Brooks - www.brooksrunning.com
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brian.bento

Re: Looking for Advice/Feedback

Post by brian.bento » Wed Apr 25, 2012 4:09 pm

I can now see some of the similarities and it makes sense to me more now that I understand more about Tinman's history. 

I am finding that Tinman's standard training is similar to the peak of the Lydiard base phase:



Lydiard                 
Tinman


3/4 Effort Run
CV Reps


1/2 Effort Run
Tinman Tempo


1/4 Effort Run
Easy Run


Long Run
Long Run



After however long you have to build your fitness you can do race specific training which seems like it is similar between Tinman and Lydiard.

I am definitely finding that I felt like my fitness was much better during my base building as easy runs felt smoother and my general paces were speeding up naturally with no increase in effort. I compare that to the last 3 weeks of intense v02max work and find that I have not been recovering between runs as well, my easy runs are getting more difficult to hold even a slower pace and I am generally feeling beat up.  I am guessing that this is why Tinman has incorporated some light V02max work into his general training phase because as you said the transition into race shape isn't as abrupt and doesn't stress your body as much as jumping into race specific workouts.

I was only planning on doing the 6 weeks of v02max work that lydiard described before doing a few more races and then would be returning to base over the summer so hopefully I haven't destroyed my fitness too much by doing this work.

As for your 5K pr, I'd be damn proud of that if I were you it is quite impressive.

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Re: Looking for Advice/Feedback

Post by KTJ » Thu Apr 26, 2012 10:11 am

[quote="ATimmins"]
I have followed a few schedules and the best shape i have gotten into was based off of a standard tinman schedule.

Nothing is black and white, but in general there is two phases in a tinman shedule.  Phase 1 is sometimes called the 10k phase but i like to think about it as the getting fit stage.  You hit alot of paces in this phase but in general are focusing on good volume with workouts that focus on strength and endurance.  A standard rotating schedule may be:


Week 1 = CV reps one day, Tinman tempo another, and long run
Week 2 = Minutes on day, Half marathon paced reps, and a long run

That may look quite plain, and it is, but it hits all the systems without digging into any one for two long.  It raises your general fitness, and you can continue this phase as long as you like.  You will even race well off of it from 5k up to the half marathon.

The second phase greatly depends on your event.  You and an 800 runner may follow the same schedule above, but when entering phase II you would start to focus on race specific demands.  If you are getting ready for a 5k you would start to see slightly longer 5k reps, and more focus around that pace.  A Marathoner would start longer workouts and higher weekly mileage. An 800 guy would start doing faster reps.
[/quote]

What is the "Minutes" workout you mention above?

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Re: Looking for Advice/Feedback

Post by jumpsss234 » Thu Apr 26, 2012 12:47 pm

KTJ:  ap4305 briefly described it in a previous post on this thread.  Looks like it is one minute at 5k pace then one minute jog recovery.  I assume the number of "minutes" on would correspond to one's current fitness. 

I have a question about the half marathon pace reps.  As a slower runner, it seems that my current Tinman Tempo pace is also right around my half marathon pace.  How would I determine which pace to use for the half marathon pace 1 mile reps?  Would threshold pace work for those? 

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Re: Looking for Advice/Feedback

Post by Tinman » Thu Apr 26, 2012 10:01 pm

Yes, Threshold Pace, shown in my Calculator, will work fine.

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