How to build up CV running?

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Linus
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How to build up CV running?

Post by Linus » Sat Dec 08, 2012 3:06 pm

Hi all,
I am pretty new to running training and have been running for 6 months know. I started to compete in Orienteering right away, that means I have to be very good at off-road running and map reading, I compete almost every weekend, saturday or sunday. I am 35 years old so I am doing this mostly for fun and to get the health benefits from training, but of course I will try to improve myself as much as I can. This site has been a big inspiration for me and how I should train to become better and better.

At the moment I have built up myself to run 25 miles/week. One long run at around 8 miles, one competition usually 6-7 miles off road, one fast run and some easy running 2-5 miles. Usually two rest days. Last week I tried CV running for the first time as my fast run, I did 4 reps of 1k CV run, it felt really god at the time but two days later when I was out in the forest for competition my legs was totally sluggish and I did't preform good at all. So this week I cut the CV down to 3 reps of 1k and did it one day earlier, so 3 days before competition. It really feels like the CV training can do miracles for me and my off road running but I am a bit confused how to build it up so I can run 10 reps of 1k CV.

How many days before competition is CV training optimal? Should I do it 3, 4 or 5 days before competition.

Since I aim for 10 reps of 1k CV, what is a good build up to get there? Or should I focus more on my long run or to build up more miles per week?


Many thanks

dkggpeters
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Re: How to build up CV running?

Post by dkggpeters » Sat Dec 08, 2012 3:45 pm

10 x 1K is way too much for you.  Tinman recommends volume of CV Intervals based off of 5k time.  10 reps would indicate a time of less then 15 minute 5k which is really fast and also your weekly mileage would be fairly high.  I do 6 reps and am running 60 to 75 miles a week and this amount of volume is perfect for me.  I also do 4 x 200m at 1 mile pace afterwards.  They are tougher then you think if you do the pacing correctly and make sure that the rest interval is only a 200m jog (for me approx 1:15).  3 or 4 reps sounds like the right volume for you at this point and working up to 5 or 6 over time is what you should be shooting for.

As for how many days before it depends on how quickly you recover.  For a true race I would probably give myself 4 or 5 days but my recovery abilities are pretty good.  You may need to experiment to find what works best for you.

Linus
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Re: How to build up CV running?

Post by Linus » Sat Dec 08, 2012 4:20 pm

Thank you very much for the input dkggpeters

I'll probably stay at around 3-4 reps of 1k CV for a while then. Then try out how many days it takes to recover. But is the recover time just suppose to 200m jog? In the article section Tinmans recommendations for long intervals is to rest about the same time it took to run the interval.

Tinman
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Re: How to build up CV running?

Post by Tinman » Sat Dec 08, 2012 11:09 pm

Equal recovery times between reps is for V.O2 max training. For CV training, recovery er 1000m rep for most runners is between 50 seconds and 100 seconds, depending upon how fast you run the 100m reps. As a rule of thumb, jog 200m between reps. How fast you jog typically falls in line with the appropriate recovery time that you need. 14-15-minute 5km runner will often jog about 60-70 seconds or a little over for their 200m jogs, but slower (5km) runners will jog their 200m recoveries at 90-100 minutes, quite often, both of which are appropriate.

Take care!

Tinman
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Inquire via email:
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Linus
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Re: How to build up CV running?

Post by Linus » Sun Dec 09, 2012 11:08 am

Thank you very much for the info Tinman,

I was out and competing in the forest today, very hard conditions, almost blizzard. My legs felt much better but still I think the interval should be done one day earlier and not more then 3 reps of 1k CV pace. I will shorten the rest time gradually so I come down to 200m easy jog. The course I am using is actually a 200 jog between the reps, but the jog has taken me around 3 min. I will try to aim for the 100 sec.

Many thanks again for the input :)

Ps I really hope Tinman will have the time to produce his book Ds. 
Last edited by Linus on Sun Dec 09, 2012 5:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Wellpark
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Re: How to build up CV running?

Post by Wellpark » Wed Dec 12, 2012 10:55 am

Linus,

From your feedback, I am a little concerned that you may be trying to run the reps too fast also. I say this because of the recovery time you feel you need between the reps.

I also wonder if trying to run 1K initially for your reps might be a bit far straight away. I say this because you are relatively new to training in this way and I wonder if your pace judgement is ok.

I would like to see you running consistent 400m reps at CV pace with a 30-40s recovery and do 5-6 efforts. progress this to 600m with 60s rec, 800m with 60-80s rec. then 1K efforts. Cut the number of efforts as you increase the distance.

When you start with the 400m efforts, you should be surprised by how manageable and repeatable the efforts are. If this is not the case, you are def. running them too fast. You should adapt and get stronger fairly quickly. If not - you are running too fast. If you are tired and sluggish going into a race off the back of this level of training. You are def. running too fast ;-)

Err on the side of running slower. Focus on being relaxed and running consistent efforts. try not to have too big a range in times for efforts 2-4s.

I hope this helps.

Jim
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Re: How to build up CV running?

Post by Jim » Wed Dec 12, 2012 11:36 am

The first time I did CV workouts I thought they were too easy and the rest was too long.  But Tinman held me back and made me do just 4 of them.  4 x 1000m @ 10km pace with a 200m jog? That ain't a workout!  I thought I needed to run them faster than 10km pace with less rest and do more reps, like 8.  This is the difference between Tinman's "Optimal" training and what we consider "Maximal" training.  Just because you CAN do a harder workout doesn't mean you SHOULD do a harder workout! 

Part of Tinman's job as our coach is to keep us from self-destructing.  You know, save us from ourselves and all the crap advice we read about and hear about.

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Re: How to build up CV running?

Post by Spider Man » Wed Dec 12, 2012 12:11 pm

Linus,

I'm in agreement with WellPark & Jim ... all the signs from your comments points to you doing your CV reps too quickly ... the exact pace should be around 'on the day' 10K race pace ... you need to know what this pace is exactly, or you will just run each repetition too quickly/hard.

Slowing down your CV efforts may be counter-intuitive, BUT it's what you probably need to do.

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Re: How to build up CV running?

Post by BoilerTom90 » Wed Dec 12, 2012 2:33 pm

[quote="Spider Man"]
Linus,

I'm in agreement with WellPark & Jim ... all the signs from your comments points to you doing your CV reps too quickly ... the exact pace should be around 'on the day' 10K race pace ... you need to know what this pace is exactly, or you will just run each repetition too quickly/hard.

Slowing down your CV efforts may be counter-intuitive, BUT it's what you probably need to do.
[/quote]

If I recall, CV pace is not 10K pace for everyone. I thought it was in the 35ish  minute race pace.  I'd use Tinman's calculator on runningprs.com using a time you think you can honestly run on that day accounting for things such as weather, time of day, your fatigue level, etc.
Last edited by BoilerTom90 on Wed Dec 12, 2012 3:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

dkggpeters
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Re: How to build up CV running?

Post by dkggpeters » Wed Dec 12, 2012 4:10 pm

That is what I tell myself whenever I am doing them is "Can I run this pace for 35 minutes?"  I know when I am running them right when after the 3rd one I think that they are way to easy.  The 5th and 6th ones become tough (the short rests start catching up about at this point) but there is no question about completing them and I feel like I could do a couple more if I had to.  I the last one is really hard to maintain pace then you know that you did them way to fast.

At the beginning I did these on the Treadmill so I could control the pace and keep it even and on plan.  If you run them too hard, this could be an option until you get a good feel for the intensity level.

Linus
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Re: How to build up CV running?

Post by Linus » Wed Dec 12, 2012 4:45 pm

Thanks for all the input    :D :D :D

From the Tinman calculator I have come to the conclusion to set my CV pace to 4min 25 sek per Kilometer. I have run 5k in 23 min without pushing fully and 1 k in 3min 35 sec when pushing as hard as possible, but that was 3 months ago and I am much stronger now. I could easy cut down the rest time but thought it was better to do it gradually. The cut down to 3 efforts of 1k CV and one more day rest made a big difference, I think that one more day before race will give even better legs. From the races we get the time between every "control point" and I have continued  to improve on the long runs where the running is more vital. It was just after the first CV run I was slower for the first time in 6 month.


Went out today and did 3 reps of 1k CV, the rest was just over 2min, felt really good, the big problem now is all the snow and the cold (15-20 F). first 4:22 second 4:28 and last 4.20. It is a big difference if push myself hard and I am pretty sure I could manage 10k in 45 min, but I might go slower like you tell me. If I feel stronger at this Sundays race again should I still slow down the CV pace?

There will be to weeks racing break around X-mas, if I can found some time on an indoor track I will try the 400m reps of CV :)

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