Does the length of CV intervals vary by event training for?

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BURN7
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Does the length of CV intervals vary by event training for?

Post by BURN7 » Mon Jan 28, 2013 9:41 am

I posted my first thread and was impressed with all the thoughtful repies, especially those of Tinman.  I searched many of the threads and have certainly learned a lot.  I did read that CV reps could be done from 400 meters all the way up to the mile.  I also read that the duration of total time spend during a CV workout should be based on a 5k time.  With that said many posts use the 1,000 meter distance and my question is if an athlete is training for the 3,200 and the 1,600 would repead miles at CV pace be okay?  As stated earlier I have been doing Vigil mile repeats since late December.  Switching to CV paced reps my athlete will go from 5:45 pace to 5:55 with only a 200 jog recovery as opposed to the 3 minutes with Vigil.  Would mile repeats be too long or if she can handle 4 X 1,600 at CV pace and a 200 jog should I stay with that?  If not I can ran 6 X 1,000 at 3:41 which would be close to 22:00 of time spend at CV pace.  SHe ran 11:04 in the 3,200 and has a 18:00 5k on a XC course.  Mile repeats would be 24:00 spent at CV pace.
My first thought is that since I have been doing miles I should stick with it but I do not want to run her at the wrong distance if it is not appropriate.  And if I am correct the 200 jog would be 1:30. 

Last thing...on your calculator it says Temp.  That is Tinman Tempo calculation correct?

Thanks so much.

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Re: Does the length of CV intervals vary by event training for?

Post by Tinman » Mon Jan 28, 2013 10:46 am

Burn7 -

Glad you have read past posts and learned more about the ideas I have presented regarding training, in particular CV training which I think is incredibly valuable to all runners; perhaps more so than any other form of training because it improves stamina (the ability to use a high fraction of V.O2 max as oxygen consumption and performance of Type IIa (2a) fibers is largely improved at this key intensity).

You can use shorter reps at CV pace any time you want, but it is especially good for novice runners, runners who are just getting into CV training for the first time or the first time in quite a while, or when you are not sure exactly how fit you are or your athlete is. You can use 1-mile or 1600m reps at CV too. My recommendation for most runners or coaches is to shoot for the middle ground of 3-4 minutes CV reps. I've noted for many years that 3-minutes to 4-minutes reps seem to offer several advantages to runners and their coaches. First, it's long enough to really improve fitness. Second, it requires sustained concentration, compared to shorter reps of say 1-2 minutes. Third, it's still short enough that if the runner makes and error - say they run a rep too fast - that you can salvage the workout without too much strain. You simply tell the runner to slow down on the next rep and because they did not run too far at the too-fast pace you can still accumulate enough training volume in the workout to derive the benefits for which you or your athlete seek. With too-long reps - say 1-mile - if an error in pace occurs (too-fast, for example) then you will find it may be the undoing of your workout, where the total volume must be cut for the workout or the athlete begins to strain to keep the pace going of subsequent reps.

Note that experienced, self-aware runners, can run longer CV reps and be very successful. This is particularly true for people who race plenty of 8km to half-marathon race, for they are very aware of what CV should feel like because it's near a pace they use in racing regularly. It's also true the anyone who has used CV, especially those whom I have coached for a few weeks or months, will be able to use longer CV reps without really struggling. Most of the runners I coach know what CV feels like and they also know that I support them when they make a conscious decision to back off the pace if they are straining. I care that CV is performed with little strain. I prefer to have runners feel "pressure" but not pain in workouts. Pressure is good on key workout days, not pain or strain. I believe the learning to run relaxed and rhythmical is incredibly important for runners; if they want to reach their highest personal potential. I watched a video of Bernard Lagat last night, as he won a 3000m race. He's a prime example of someone who runs relaxed and rhythmical. There is very little strain as he cruises along. I think Galen Rupp may reach an even higher level, if he learns to relax his shoulders and hands more. I thik Seb Coe, Steve Ovett, Steve Scott, and John Walker were all examples of runners who learned to run relaxed and rhythmical. David Rudisha, the world record holder for 800m, and Joachim Cruz of the past, have incredibly relaxed and rhythmical 800m running rhythm.

Gabriela Szabo, who was a great 5000-10000m runner on the track in the past, was super relaxed and rhythmical while racing and training (there are videos of her doing both). In fact, I suggest that you find a video of her and show that video to your female runner; give your gal an template for the kind of relaxation that's needed to optimize performance in racing.

Again, feel free to use 1600m reps, if you want to, but monitor your athlete's form closely and be sure she's not straining. If she's straining, shorten the rep length to 1200m, 1000m, or even 800m until she demonstrates relaxation while running and she hits appropriate CV paces.

By the way, you mentioned "temp" in your post, in regards to my online calculator. I don't see a "temp" but I do see tempo on there. Tempo is the 4th line down, starting from Very Easy at the top of the training paces section.

Take care,

Tinman
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BURN7
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Re: Does the length of CV intervals vary by event training for?

Post by BURN7 » Mon Jan 28, 2013 12:41 pm

Ah yes I meant tempo.  My athlete uses a Garmin watch so her pace is always spot on so I think she will continue with miles just not Vigil's way.  I also love the idea of running fast 200's after the last CV rep.  How much time between the last rep and the first fast 200 do you recomend?  Same 200 meter jog or say 5 minutes?

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Re: Does the length of CV intervals vary by event training for?

Post by FTIR » Mon Jan 28, 2013 6:34 pm

You may have seen this but

"TINMAN: "The Tinman method of training uses repeat 1km CV reps as a primary baseline fitness tool. It gets you in shape to do specific race-pace training. I've found that doing longer CV reps isn't really going to do much more in terms of baseline fitness than doing 1km reps. That doesn't mean the 1200s, 1500s, 1600, or 2k reps can't be used - for variety: It means that noticeable improvements in baseline fitness appear to be similar throughout the 1k to 2k range.

What counts is running at CV pace, running a particular volumef of CV, and controlling the recoveries between reps (creating specific training density stimulus). Let me use and example. Jon, 31 minute 10k runner, may run 8 x 1km at CV pace, jog 1 minute between reps or 4 x 2km at CV pace, jog 2 minutes between reps. The overall stimulus is about the same - negligible.

Now, from a pragmatic point of view, if Jon runs 1k reps and finds that he isn't doing well during the workout (he's extra tired, ill, or whatever) it is more likely, experience shows, that he can call it quits and not do much harm - because it is just 1k (3-4 minutes of running). If Jon is running 2k reps, it is a bigger commitment workout, and he is likely to "at least finish the rep." The problem is that particular rep - which is fairly long - can put him in the "hole." The result is not pretty! He experiences a setback that lasts a few days."

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Re: Does the length of CV intervals vary by event training for?

Post by Tinman » Mon Jan 28, 2013 8:36 pm

200 jog, yes!
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Re: Does the length of CV intervals vary by event training for?

Post by wuxcalum » Mon Jan 28, 2013 11:24 pm

I have found that around 20 minutes of CV work in the form of 3-4:30 minute intervals tend to the sweet spot for our better boys and girls.  While not quite as talented as your girl, our top two girls ran 18:30 for 3 miles and 5:20 for the mile this past year.  I found that 5x1000 at CV to be a very appropriate amount for them.  Could have they run six or seven 1000's?  Perhaps, but with one and sometimes two races a week, not to mention all the other stresses of a high school kid, I think that the 5x1000 was/is the right amount for our top girls.  Our top boys usually do 6x1000. This past season we were fortunate enough to have two extremely fast boys: one ran 4:12/1:54 and the other ran 4:11/9:02.  We stuck with the 6x1000 (or 5x1200) even for them.  Was I tempted to have them do more CV work? yes! (And maybe others on the board would say I should have upped their CV volume) But I firmly believe that I'd rather keep the kids relatively fresh and still hungry to workout and race at the end of the season as opposed to feeling run-down and mentally drained by the end of the season.  We kept them consisten with two workout and one long run per week all season long. (meets count as workouts)  This philosophy paid off as both were ready to perform their best at the state meet where the first boy place 3rd in the 1600 and 1st in the 800 and the second boy placed 2nd in the 1600 and 2nd in the 3200 at the state meet in our states medium division. 

Please note that the 20 minutes of CV volume (with 200s after) is what we use during the whole cross country season.  During track, we stick with the 20 minutes of CV volume once per week with 200s after.  Once we get to the last 6-8 weeks of the season we reduce the CV volume to 12-16 minutes and add in race pace work after the CV work.  An example workout might be 4x1000 at CV w/200 jogs, then 3-4x400 at mile pace with 400 jogs.  800 runners to 800 pace work, 3200 runners to 3200 pace work, etc... Or we rotate the paces for variety.  These combo CV/Race Pace workouts kill two birds with one stone when you constantly have a a race every week.

Obviously all of these principles and workouts are taken right out of the Tinman blueprint.  I know that I have repeated some of what has already been said on this topic.  I reiterate the principles because they work! 

Jimmy
Last edited by wuxcalum on Mon Jan 28, 2013 11:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Does the length of CV intervals vary by event training for?

Post by Xcrunningcoach » Tue Jan 29, 2013 6:23 am

Jimmy,

Thanks for the insightful post about your experiences coaching your high school athletes.  If you don't mind me asking, what grade(s) are the two runners you mention and what kind of mileage did they do to get to that level of performance?

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Re: Does the length of CV intervals vary by event training for?

Post by ZachCC » Tue Jan 29, 2013 12:18 pm

How much race pace work for Combo workouts? When focus is or  800meter or 3200 meter? I see you say 3-4x400 for 1600. Ex) for boys running-40-50miles/week

thanks-good stuff! :D

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Re: Does the length of CV intervals vary by event training for?

Post by wuxcalum » Tue Jan 29, 2013 1:03 pm

XCrunningcoach-Both boys were seniors last year and are running D1 now. Let me first say that both of these boys were extremely talented with lots of natural ability. I would estimate that I will only get a kid as talented as the two of them once every five to ten years. To have two such fast kids was a dream for a third year coach! Luckily i had this site and Tinman to help me so I didnt screw them up! Both ran about 40-50 mpw as juniors. As seniors the 800/1600 guy developed shin issues for much of the year and we had to keep him at 30-35 mpw on five runs with two to three 45-60 min elliptical sessions per week. We don't have a pool at our school. The other boy was healthy so he ran around 50-55 mpw in cross then we added two 30 min morning runs per week during the winter and spring which brought his mileage in track to around 60 mpw.

ZachCC- For 800 pace combo workouts we do 800-1200meters of pace work(5x200, 4x300 etc) recovery jog is around 1.5-2 times the rep distance. For 3200 race combos  we do 1200-1800 meters(2-3x600, 2x800 etc) with slow400 jog recovery.

I'd be interested to hear what others have to say their guidelines are for combo workouts.

Jimmy
Last edited by wuxcalum on Tue Jan 29, 2013 1:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Does the length of CV intervals vary by event training for?

Post by BURN7 » Tue Jan 29, 2013 1:17 pm

Well after my girl ran 5:01 last night the Tinamn calulator CV pace per mile dropped to 5:44.  With the Vigil miles she ran 5:40's with 3 minute break.  I wanted to keep the CV at mile repeats however with that pace I think dropping down to 1,000s makes more sense.

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Re: Does the length of CV intervals vary by event training for?

Post by Jeff_D » Tue Jan 29, 2013 2:00 pm

It might be better to keep the CV training a little dialed back as what she can run in practice versus in a race is always going to be a little different. She might only be capable of 5:10 or so on any given day so set her CV to that. Tinman has a 12 second rule (i think its 12 second?) that says that basically says he was 12 seconds slower per mile at the same effort on any given day because he wasn't rested, amped up, spiked up and competing against a field. You'll still reap the rewards without risking going overboard by trying to train a level your athlete may have just raced performance-wise. Keep her mentally fresh and poised in practice and she'll be emotionally, mentally, physically primed and ready to go even after months of racing when it really counts. Many athletes reach the end of the season or championship races and fail to perform like they did in their qualifying races because they ran to the barn in practice and pushed either too hard or too frequently between races and workouts.

Congrats on the great race by your athlete. With more endurance work and mix of speed I imagine she could get into 4:50 shape by the end of the outdoor season assuming a good race!

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Re: Does the length of CV intervals vary by event training for?

Post by Xcrunningcoach » Tue Jan 29, 2013 2:05 pm

Thanks Jimmy - great information.  One other question - once you start doing the race pace work after the reduced CV running, do you still do the 200's at mile pace afterwards, or does the race pace work replace that?

Thanks again.

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Re: Does the length of CV intervals vary by event training for?

Post by wuxcalum » Tue Jan 29, 2013 7:25 pm

The race pace work replaces the 200s.

Jimmy

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