Pre's (Dellinger's) 30/40 Workout

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BURN7
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Pre's (Dellinger's) 30/40 Workout

Post by BURN7 » Thu Jan 31, 2013 8:35 pm

Has anyone had success implementing this workout?  Alternating a 200 at mile pace then 200 at plus 10 seconds.  I have read a few coaches using this method and I feel that it would be a great workout for a stud running the 3,200 at a dual meet.  If the kid will easily win why not get a workout with it? 
Any thoughts?

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Re: Pre's (Dellinger's) 30/40 Workout

Post by Jeff_D » Thu Jan 31, 2013 9:18 pm

Our coach uses this from time to time, usually as a second part to a workout. although we actually do 30/40 or 32/42 depending on the group (which turns out to be 1-2 seconds/200 faster than mile pace). My coach also coached a 3:46 miler and the world champ at 1500. I think it's probably a pretty good workout but obviously its about implementation. you could also try his 30/30 or mile pace 200 w/ equal rest. Depends on the athlete mainly - are they very fit already looking to improve their fitness further? do they need the high end aerobic work and speed? if they are junior athletes or newer to running I would say just sticking to your bread and butter tinman workouts will give your athletes plenty of stimulus.

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Re: Pre's (Dellinger's) 30/40 Workout

Post by BURN7 » Thu Jan 31, 2013 9:28 pm

My athlete runs 35-40 miles and will be runing lots of CV and tempos until May.  The dual meets will be in April.  I thought the idea of uneven running makes this workout attractive.  I would have her go 37/47 most likely.  I read a pice by Joe Rubio who recommended that type of workout for the tail end of a milers plan.  He said run 1 workout a week at 3k or 5k pace and that was 1 workout he gave.  Now the title of the plan included post-collegiate runners.  I think I have run too many hard workouts in a week sometimes 3 or 4 counting the dual meet.  If I have her run a dual meet and run that workout I may only have to run 1 additional workout for the week.  The result could be a well rested hungry runner.

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Re: Pre's (Dellinger's) 30/40 Workout

Post by Spider Man » Fri Feb 01, 2013 8:13 am

Hi Burn7,

I'm not clear as to whether you mean her to run her race in this fashion (uneven 200s) or in addition (on the same day) to her 3200m race.

Personally, if you are confident that she is head & shoulders above her opposition, I would focus on the race (3200m) but practice different tactics (e.g. fast 600m start, cruise the middle laps, fast last 600m, or sit in on her opposition for the first 6-7 laps & then sprint away over the final 500-600m) ... this would help her prepare for races against better opposition where often tactics rather than ability might dictate the result of the race.

Cheers,
Alan.

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Re: Pre's (Dellinger's) 30/40 Workout

Post by BURN7 » Fri Feb 01, 2013 11:19 am

I meant during the race.  She is over a minute better than any kid in our league so a workout during the run is feasible.

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Re: Pre's (Dellinger's) 30/40 Workout

Post by WHS » Fri Feb 01, 2013 12:01 pm

Renato Canova has written about a workout where the athlete completes 100-150m segments at 92-93% of 800m race pace with 15-20 seconds rest between rep and 5:00 rest between sets.  He states that this workout improves LT as much as a continuous tempo type of a run.  Tinman, do you know of any research that would back this claim?  Or, with your experience, does that seem plausible? 

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Re: Pre's (Dellinger's) 30/40 Workout

Post by Jackpot » Fri Feb 01, 2013 1:18 pm

WHS, i've many times heard Marius Bakken recomend workouts like 45 sec. fast runs with recoverys of just 15 sec. for at total of 25 - 30 minutes. You could do this in sets of eight minutes with a couple minutes active recovery or 25-30 minutes straight. The important think is to have a prgression in your pace throughout the workout, he said. If you are are runnning on a treadmill you can up the pace by about 0,1-0,2 km/h per intervall, he suggest. I too, would like to hear Tinmans wiew of this sort of workout.

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Re: Pre's (Dellinger's) 30/40 Workout

Post by wuxcalum » Fri Feb 01, 2013 6:59 pm

I don't think that would be a bad idea to mix up a dual meet with the "Oregon Drill" as you mentioned.  The concept of mixing in a workout into a required dual is something that we do often with our athletes.  Adding tempo or a fartlek before/after a race is an idea. For example, one workout our 9:02 guy did was to run a 3200 in 10:00, then go do a 3 mile tempo, then come back and run the 4x400.    Another thought is that, you could have your girl run two or three events a prescribed paces to help pace your lesser athletes to PRs.  Also, the idea of working tactics is very smart as well.  Finally, if your girl is looking a little tired or needs some extra recovery, there is nothing wrong with her competing in one race and have her do the minimum to win and then send her out for a long slow recovery run.  Dual meets are great for your JV and young athletes, but certainly pesky for your studs, when all we want as coaches is to train them properly and to get them to state meet in one piece.



Jimmy
Last edited by wuxcalum on Fri Feb 01, 2013 7:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Pre's (Dellinger's) 30/40 Workout

Post by Tinman » Fri Feb 01, 2013 9:39 pm

I don't know research that confirms threshold is raised by running a 92 to 93% of the hundred meter race pace. However the concept is generally relevant in terms of extending the stamina because essentially the focus is to run at submaximal pace and provide a substantial quantity of stimulus times volume. Therefore I would support such a practice and I've done so for over 20 years.
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Re: Pre's (Dellinger's) 30/40 Workout

Post by BURN7 » Sat Feb 02, 2013 8:31 pm

I really like that idea of running Lactate Threshold with 100's at 92% 800 effort, especially for HS kids.  The average High Schooler in my opinion never runs a true LT run the way it should be...or they can't handle it.  Does Canova think that 800 runners benefit more from 100's with 10 seconds break more than 20-40 minute sustained runs?  Would that workout be better that a 20 minute tempo run?  I think that it may be due to the fact that the speed is closer to their 800 event pace but perhaps I am wrong.  Along with my miler/3,200 meter girl I have another girl who ran 2:16 as a sophomore who still plays basketball.  She has had almost zero base training and still ran fast on a 12 week plan.  This winter she is running a CV workout and a 20-30 minute tempo run on the treadmill during hoops season.  She also does 1 distance run during the week.  She has never done that type of running in the winter so I expect her to be fitter than in years past.  I like the 100s as a LT run once I get her in March.  The reason being is that she also runs the 400 IH and is very good her PR is 63.6.  Would running a 100 on the turn over hurdles taking 10 seconds off then running without hurdles back the opposite direction both at 92% of her 800 work as Lactate Threshold?  Clearly the hurdle pace is slower than her actual pace but it is good technique training to deal with hurdles when fatigued and it covers the LT workout for that week.
Any thoughts?

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Re: Pre's (Dellinger's) 30/40 Workout

Post by Tinman » Sun Feb 03, 2013 12:47 am

Burn7 -

I think Coach Canova has some ideas that are not strictly supported by scientific evidence, but they work for his world-class runners who have thousands of miles of running under their belt. He even admits that you can't strictly apply the methods he uses for his super elite runners to average Jane and Joe runners who have hardly any base fitness compared to his super-elite runners.

Basically, Coach Canova is saying run your 800m runners at 1600m race-pace to increase their threshold. That's not going to happen unless they run a lot of reps and their Type 2x fibers tire out, which means their Type 2a fibers has to become the force producers. However, I still don't think that's a very good use of time. Athletes, particularly at the high school level in America, will gain for more fitness in their Type 2a fibers by running at CV pace, which is a bit slower than the 92%. The reason that more fitness can be acquired for Type 2a fibers with CV pace is such a pace/intensity focuses directly on those fibers, and the total volume that can be run in workout is substantially higher than at 92% of an athlete's 800m pace, which is 1600m pace.


I've written training plans for high school coaches who coached 800m runners. I designed one that was for a coach that had kids that basically did nothing from the end of October until the beginning of March. They had March, April, and May to get fit and they raced at the State meet in early June. His kids improved dramatically, and they ran 7:51 at the state meet. Just think what would have happened if his kids had trained during the November to February time-frame. I bet they would have run 7:45 for the 4 x 800m.

Here's the question, did I prescribe a boat-load of 100s at 92% speed to so-called improve their threshold? Nope! I mixed Tempo, CV, and race-pace work. At first most of the work was easy distance, tempo reps (1-mile reps at their 3200m pace plus 50-60 seconds per mile), striders, and easy hills or fartlek. By mid-season they ran plenty of combo workouts with CV-repetitions for stamina, 1600-800m reps for introducing and conditioning Type 2x fibers for both anaerobic glycolysis and specific fiber strength. At the end I peaked them with more quality, but still included CV training, which is an amazing tool for elevating threshold (because it's 4% harder than true threshold, so it pulls the threshold up by conditioning Type 2a fibers, which are the ones that are conditioned with so-called true threshold training, just as they are with CV training).

Note that I seldom prescribe or recommend continuous threshold runs to high school track athletes. I give them CV reps or Threshold reps. As a coach, you can monitor them. For the athletes, those reps are mentally not too hard to perform.

Regards,

Tinman
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Re: Pre's (Dellinger's) 30/40 Workout

Post by BURN7 » Sun Feb 03, 2013 2:48 pm

Makes sense.
I love the idea of combo workouts.  I have always struggled meeting the needs of both the 800 and the 400 hurdles during a week.  If I focus on he hurdles the 800 is affected, and if I focus on the 800 the hurdling is off.  I can do CV and Tempo efforts twice a week and finish the workout with 100 - 200 efforts over hurdles.  I would only hurdle over the last 5 hurdles as running fatigued at that stage needs to be practiced.  I would need my athlete to be not tired when practicing the crucial stride pattern during hurdles 1 through.
1 day run CV and throw some 200s over hurdles.  The next workout speed development like 150's over first 4 hurdles working on stride pattern.  Lots of rest between reps, then run a tempo with 800 type efforts at the end.

Does this make sense?  With tempo type reps how do you structure them?  If the run is not continuous how much break do you take between say 1 mile or 800 meter efforts?

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Re: Pre's (Dellinger's) 30/40 Workout

Post by runthe8 » Wed Feb 06, 2013 4:41 pm

[quote="BURN7"]
  With tempo type reps how do you structure them?  If the run is not continuous how much break do you take between say 1 mile or 800 meter efforts?
[/quote]

I'm curious about this too.  Would you do short, jogging rests or just stand around short rests?  What kind of work to rest ratio?

I also would like to know more about what else to do when you only have 12 weeks to get middle D kids ready for the championship meets after they've done little to no training over the winter.  I'm amazed that that boys 4x800 could run 7:51 without training over the winter.

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Re: Pre's (Dellinger's) 30/40 Workout

Post by wuxcalum » Wed Feb 06, 2013 4:53 pm

60-90 seconds.  Jogs for the more experienced athletes and walks for the less experienced athletes.

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Re: Pre's (Dellinger's) 30/40 Workout

Post by Tinman » Thu Feb 07, 2013 1:02 am

Tempo for the 4 x 800m runners who ran 7:51 was 1-mile reps @ their 3200m-pace plus about 1 minute. Walk-jog 1 minute btw reps.

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