Moving forward after 1 4:48. Any suggestions?

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Moving forward after 1 4:48. Any suggestions?

Post by BURN7 » Tue May 14, 2013 9:38 am

Well I am still on clud 9 after her race but am also nervous about moving forward.  I know the hay is in the barn but I need to keep this train rolling until nationals on June 15.  I will give a breakdown of the remainder of the season and my thoughts/concerns.  Anyone wanting to chime is please do so.  As you will see below it is an important race every weekend and the peak race for a state title is Wed. June 5 only 4 days after the qualifier.  My concern is squeezing in 1 last hard mile workout like 4 X 600 at goal pace, and 1 3,200 specific workout before the June 1st meet.  The best runner in the state will be in her race for the 3,200 so I want her prepared!  I do not want to lose tempo/CV stamina but I need to sharpen her up.  I really only have time for 1 workout per week unless I run hard 2 days in a row.  I could run the peaking 3,200 workout on Sunday the day following this Saturday's 800 and 4 X 400.  SHe will have to run 2 days in a row come states so perhaps that will be a good practice for her.  I wanted to do the peaking workout prescribed by Tinman at some point in another thread.  2 mile warm-up then 3 - 4 X 800 at goal pace some sprints and a cool-down.  I could go easy Monday then crank out a goal pace peaking ile workout on Tuesday.  A lot of questions I know but if you are bored/interested give it a thought! 

1. This weekend the 800 and 4 X 400 on Saturday 5/18.
2. Friday and Saturday 5/28 and 5/29 State Sectionals.  Mile on friday, 3,200 and 4 X 400 on Saturday.
3. Friday 5/31 and Sat. June 1 State Groups.  Mile on Friday 3,200 on Saturday.
4. NJ State Meet of Champions Wed. June 5.
5. New Balance Nationals Saturday June 15.

This week 5/12 - 5/18.  Racing the 800 and 4 X 400 on Saturday.
Sunday - 8 miles at 7:50 pace.
Monday - 7 miles at 8:00 pace.  I was going to do a workout but it was unseasonable cold and I figured she could use another day to recover from the 4:48.
Tuesday - TODAY!  3 X 1,000 @ CV followed by 2 - 3 X 600 at mile pace and a 400 at 800 pace. 
Wed. 6 easy.
Thursday - OFF!  Give her off instead of Sunday.  She can do her long run still on Sunday or a workout.
Friday pre-meet.
Saturday 800, 4 X 400

Sunday 5/19 Long run or should I run the peaking 3,200 workout?

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Re: Moving forward after 1 4:48. Any suggestions?

Post by Jeff_D » Tue May 14, 2013 10:05 am

From my perspective, I would say you don't really need a hard mile/3200 workout at any point this season - that's what all this racing is for! As far as a "3200 specific workout", why not some reps in a combo workout at 3200 pace so she can get a feel for it? I like the look of this week although I would say that if she could go for an easy run on thursday that would be great. Even if she doesn't have practice she will benefit in a month from doing even an easy 3-4 miles. I would say on sunday after the 800 and 4 x 400 go for an easy, easy long run or just an easy run.  additionally, a lengthy cool down of 30 mins after the meet would be great. I don't know how much aerobic background your athlete has so this is making it difficult for me not to be higher mileage oriented.

I think my main tips are:
1) keep the mileage up, this isn't the real championship for her yet and you need to keep the strength/endurance up when she is getting in this racing. The mileage can be easy, very easy, so long as it is getting done.
2) Avoid too much speed in a workout, it's 1000x better to be undertrained speed-wise than it is to be overtrained! and Remember, she is getting in the best speed sessions of her life every weekend! She is doing 1600s in 4:48 and fast 800's/400s. In practice, you will benefit great from just maintaining some CV reps and a low volume of speed. When in doubt, less is better with speed. (less isn't more though, less is less.)

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Re: Moving forward after 1 4:48. Any suggestions?

Post by BURN7 » Tue May 14, 2013 10:16 am

Thanks Jeff.  SHe has a lot of aerobic mileage under her belt.  She really has not done speed stuff until April.  She was doing lots of CV and Tempo along with distance this past winter.

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Re: Moving forward after 1 4:48. Any suggestions?

Post by ap4305 » Thu May 16, 2013 7:30 pm

I agree w/ all of Jeff's points. 

A few points to add...

In the unlikely event she's undertrained with speed going into the real championships you can always "tighten the screws" at the last minute and sharpen up very near her potential.  If you overdo it too early, the ship has sailed and you can't bring it back to the harbor this season. 

Don't forget that maintaining an aerobic foundation may help accelerate recovery during a multiday meet. 

Remember the 3200 is still a ~10 minute race for high school girls.  That's almost a 5k in duration for elite men.   

I'll just add this Tinman classic from an OLD letsrun thread that I have archived.....

"How many runners think that fast repetition workouts and low mileage are the answer to peaking and then, after using them, fall apart after 1/3rd of the way through their race? Sad that so many of us have been duped! Those fast 400s with low mileage do erode mitochondrial enzymes which run the cellular oxidation. Every year I watch cross country championship races and shake my head in amazement at the ones who run fast, very fast, early in the races because they feel so strong. Yet, a mile later, they are in severe oxygen debt. They carry the bear on their backs as the yards pass, feeling more and more heavy. If only their "wanted it" more. If only they would "concentrate" more. If only they were mentally tougher. Meanwhile, those sly soles who did not taper out the distance much are waiting and waiting. They know they will catch the tapered runners. They know that the last 1/3rd of the race is their domain. And, soon enough, the bear is too heavy too carry. The pace slows drastically for the tapered runner gets passed so quickly that to an observer it looks like one person is walking and the other is running. Ah, sweet victory for those who know that distance is one's best friend and anaerobic endurance training in the peak phase is just plain gonna fail 8-9 times out of 10!!"
Allan Phillips
Doctor of Physical Therapy
Tinman athlete since 2003
IG: @thekettlebelldoc

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Re: Moving forward after 1 4:48. Any suggestions?

Post by runthe8 » Thu May 16, 2013 10:09 pm

AP- that old quote is just what I needed to read right now.  My freshman son just ran districts yesterday and today.  3200 on Wednesday was 9:53 and 1600  today was 4:33, both small PR's over a couple of weeks ago. Out of the distance kids on his team, he has been the only one keeping up his mileage and stamina work (behind the coach's back).  He is the only kid who continues to improve each race and the only one who has made it to regionals.  I have been concerned because he doesn't look like he has that other faster gear yet and have wondered what in the world to do about it, or whether I should even worry about it.  This is despite the fact his coach has been giving the boys 400's and 200's, fast, for the last 3 weeks.  He can hold on strong, and doesn't get outkicked, but he isn't really outkicking anyone either.  I think he will just run the 3200 next Wednesday at regionals and skip the 1600 because he has a better shot of making states in the 3200. He will need to be fresh at regionals to make states, we can't just train straight through it, I don't think.  States is the 31st of May.

Here's my plan for the next week...any suggestions or tweaks to it so he might find that extra gear or "tighten the screws" as you say, by the state meet? 
Friday- easy recovery run, 50 minutes.
Saturday- 4x800 at CV pace (about 2:38 for him, I think) with 400 jog recoveries followed by 4x 200 at about 30-31 seconds with 200 jogs.  Big warm up and cooldown so about 7 miles.
Sunday- easy 6 miles
Monday- not sure what his coach will give him but probably something like 4 miles and strides.  He will probably sneak in a little extra running there.
Tuesday- 25 to 30 minutes, 4-6 strides
Wednesday- race.

He hasn't had a day totally off in a while, but typically feels great after a day off.  Not sure where I would put a day off if I were to give him one, maybe Sunday?


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