Intervals

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dkggpeters
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Intervals

Post by dkggpeters » Mon Jun 17, 2013 4:20 pm

Should someone focusing on a marathon ever run 5k (VO2) paced intervals anytime in their training cycle?  I am assuming that CV intervals with 4 x 200m would preferred.

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Re: Intervals

Post by ap4305 » Mon Jun 17, 2013 4:43 pm

VO2 (~7-8 mins) and 5k (~13+ mins) will be different, but both can definitely have a place in a marathon plan (whether they SHOULD will vary by individual).  Key is overall volume and length of recovery between reps.  5k paced reps can be a good, sensible leg speed workout if you don't compress the recovery jogs.  And if you would normally do (for example) 5k worth of reps in a 5k-10k plan, maybe you only do 2-4k in a marathon plan so as not to detract from key marathon sessions. 
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Re: Intervals

Post by TexNav » Tue Jun 18, 2013 3:30 pm

http://www.therunzone.com//viewtopic.php?t=7

Reminds me of this thread that I like and bookmarked a long time back. I just remember how I liked seeing the transition from 5K and CV paced work early in the training cycle, to half and marathon specific phases later. (Somewhat of a tangent but similarly, after layoffs...and I've had my share the past few years from non running-related issues... I think I am finding it easier to do timed fartleks at current 5K, CV, or Tempo segments before moving on to Tempo runs, instead of the opposite).

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Re: Intervals

Post by dkggpeters » Tue Jun 18, 2013 10:55 pm

ap4305,  thanks and that makes sense.

TexNav,  thanks for the link.  My ultimate goal is to go sub 2:40 and Allan (ap4305) did that and it is nice to see the build up to the marathon as to quality workouts.

I haven't started my specific marathon training block which I usually like to do 13 weeks out from the marathon as this gives my a good 12 weeks of specific work.  This starts in two weeks.  Right now I am just doing faster intervals for leg speed and wasn't sure if this was worth the effort.

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Re: Intervals

Post by dkggpeters » Tue Jun 18, 2013 11:07 pm

ap4305,  what length of intervals would you recommend for 5k pace and 3k pace?  I noticed you did a lot of 1 min 5k pace intervals with 1 min recovery during your buildup to the marathon in 2010.  I was always under the impression that longer intervals of 4 to 5 minutes were preferred but that doesn't appear to be the case hear.

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Re: Intervals

Post by Tinman » Tue Jun 18, 2013 11:36 pm

You guys do know that AP is expressing my view on the matter, right?
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Re: Intervals

Post by ap4305 » Wed Jun 19, 2013 1:06 am

[quote="dkggpeters"]
ap4305,  what length of intervals would you recommend for 5k pace and 3k pace?  I noticed you did a lot of 1 min 5k pace intervals with 1 min recovery during your buildup to the marathon in 2010.  I was always under the impression that longer intervals of 4 to 5 minutes were preferred but that doesn't appear to be the case hear.
[/quote]

In general 200s to 800s (roughly 30 sec to 3 minutes) for 5k intervals, though it will vary by individual circumstances.  Its all about "minimal effective dose" and "bang for your buck."  Basically, 3K-5k intervals are like really long striders (compared to typical 75-150m distance) to improve stride efficiency and perhaps give you a mental boost so that your other paces feel easier subjectively.  You simply don't need to push through long repeats at 5k pace to get these benefits in a marathon program.         

Also consider psychology...how often you're asking yourself to get "up" for a workout.  If you're already doing hefty marathon-specific work, there's simply not much return on investment in heightening someone's arousal for 3-4 x mile or 5 x 1200 at 5k pace midweek when that workout is bracketed on consecutive weekends with physically and mentally demanding marathon sessions. 
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Re: Intervals

Post by TexNav » Wed Jun 19, 2013 1:07 am

Of course Tom! At least, I do. Though it was not for a marathon buildup, the first time I'd been recommended (by you) interval workouts before incorporating Tempo runs was after my injury when deployed! It was my first substantial layoff since beginning running and I just didn't have the strength for Tempo runs.

Tinman and AP can make the 3K-5K interval length recommendations. But to see if my educated guess is close....  I think Tinman has said before he likes to cap VO2 range intervals at about 600m intervals. Otherwise I think the most Tinman ever recommended to me closer to that pace/ effort range was at the end of a 8x800 CV/200 rec. workout, in which about 2 weeks before a big race, the last 1-2 of the 800s were actually run a little faster than CV, probably closer to 5K pace range really (and not true "VO2").

Tinman just doesn't prescribe longer intervals at 5K pace in my experience, but for good reason. (Also, I think most people think of the mold of Jack Daniels training. I think JD calls his 3-5K pace range,"VO2", correct? And he schedules those longer 4-5 min. "VO2" intervals?). I think a lot of others who are drawn to Tinman's style of training find the longer faster JD type stuff as too taxing on a regular basis, at least I know I did and haven't tried a session like JDs in about 6 years and haven't missed them. I always felt like I had to get too worked up to do them, the work period is too long, the work:recovery ratio is 1:1, and the long recoveries I found gave me no real indication of whether I could hold that "VO2" pace in a race or not. (As a personal anecdote, what I can run in a workout with a work:jog recovery ratio of 2:1 is right on with what I can expect out of a 5K. The 3:1 which is right there with Tinman's CV pace is also right there at about 10K pace for me).

The better answers are sure to come, but I don't think I'm too far off.

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Re: Intervals

Post by dkggpeters » Wed Jun 19, 2013 7:08 am

Tinman,  I always take Allan's suggestions as your views.  Allan has a firm understanding of your training methods so I know when he speaks I am getting a response similar to what you would say.

Allan,  thanks for answering that question.  I like the fact of shorter intervals as I hate faster intervals with a passion.  I have to get up for these types of workouts and it is a mental drain beforehand as well as just completing the workout.  Besides I never seem to get the bang for the buck from intervals vs CV's and tempos.  Since I am only looking at trying to get some additional leg speed, this makes sense.

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Re: Intervals

Post by dkggpeters » Wed Jun 19, 2013 8:17 am

TexNav,  Yes JD does term 5K paced intervals as VO2 Max intervals and that is why I got the terminology wrong.

I liked Allan's statement of "minimal effective dose." as it seems to apply for me when I do faster paced intervals.  I know from past experience that I can usually only do about a month's worth of longer 5K paced intervals then I seem to go downhill.  I also have always questioned if it was really helping me with the marathon or not.  I always respond very favorable to CV's and tempos and can do these week after week without problems.

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Re: Intervals

Post by dkggpeters » Wed Jun 19, 2013 4:23 pm

Today I did a small big workout (usually a big workout for me is 15 miles) of 12 miles with 4 x 800m CV intervals with 1 min jog recovery, 5 min jog recovery, 8 x 1 min at 3K to 5K pace with 1 min jog recoveries.

I ran the 8 x 1 min a little to fast at 3K pace but these felt really good and I liked this workout a ton more then a 4 x 1,200 @ 5K pace that I had planned.

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Re: Intervals

Post by ultraman » Thu Jun 20, 2013 5:41 am

Hi There

With intervals I have always wondered which gets the better effect  a lot slower with short rest or a few faster with longer rests ie 6-8x400@sub 60 sec with 3 to 4 min rest or 20x400 @1min20 with 1min30sec rest.I see a lot of short and fast being advocated now.As we age apparently speed needs to be addressed as we loose that the quickest along with strength muscle tone(ie weight/tone work also needed.

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Re: Intervals

Post by Tinman » Thu Jun 20, 2013 12:45 pm

For speed, keep your reps short and fast with long recoveries. 400s are not great for developing speed, only specific speed-endurance for mid-distance racing. For real speed, run 30-60m reps with long recoveries. For stamina, run around CV/-12km pace. You can do V.O2 max development intervals too, just not for several weeks in a row. Limit yourself to a 4-6 block of V.O2 max training and then go back to CV, Tempo, and Short speed, along with long runs and mileage. The key is to understand what you can do nearly every week of the year to develop your performance capacity and what you can only do for shorter time-frames. Balance, rotation, understanding individual differences in terms of fiber types, neural capacity, energy levels, age, stress, and so on all matter a lot. Either learn to be really good at self-awareness and being objective about your situation (meaning you must detach goals from your analysis of the present situation) or find a good coach, is what I recommend.


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Re: Intervals

Post by ap4305 » Thu Jun 20, 2013 2:24 pm

[quote="dkggpeters"]
I ran the 8 x 1 min a little to fast at 3K pace but these felt really good and I liked this workout a ton more then a 4 x 1,200 @ 5K pace that I had planned.
[/quote]

Remember too there's no rule saying "thou shall run 1200m reps at 5k pace or not at all."  4 x 1200m at 6-8k pace (or slightly faster than CV) may sometimes be a useful fit.  There's still an effect to be gained when you do the same workout (4 x 1200m) but at a slower pace (as Tex summarized), particularly if the workout isn't targeted at your primary training emphasis.  Popular running literature favors rigid rules to make things more digestible for the mass readership, but the masses often doesn't have the critical thinking skills common to the readers on this site.   
Allan Phillips
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Re: Intervals

Post by dkggpeters » Fri Jun 21, 2013 10:51 am

Allan, great point.  The current training literature does compartmentalize pace ranges between reps, intervals, tempo, MP, easy, and very easy when in fact you can use paces outside of these ranges.

When you did your HMP intervals listed on the link above (ie - 6 x 1 mile) what recoveries did you use?  I am assuming between 1 and 2 minutes.  You also did a lot of these in favor of long tempo runs, why was this?

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