From 18:15 5K to 15:45 in one year, same course

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Spider Man
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Re: From 18:15 5K to 15:45 in one year, same course

Post by Spider Man » Thu Sep 26, 2013 6:22 am

Having said that this (the missing "kick") is not something to concern your son at present, I would endorse gman's comments regards the use of hill sprints. The training group I coach do very, very little traditional anaerobic type training during the autumn/winter (x-country) season, BUT we do incorporate hill sprints (maybe as little as 5 x 60m) into one of our training sessions esch week ... this ensures that an athlete's fast-twitch muscle fibres are regularly activated, & neuro-muscular co-ordination/development is present, throughout the training cycle.

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Re: From 18:15 5K to 15:45 in one year, same course

Post by toughnessbucket » Sun Sep 29, 2013 11:46 am

Hey Runthe8 I am curious how you will format the training for your son with FL south just under 9 weeks away and your state meet 2 weeks before?

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Re: From 18:15 5K to 15:45 in one year, same course

Post by runthe8 » Sun Sep 29, 2013 9:27 pm

toughness- I'm just starting to think about this.  Anyone who wants to weigh in, please do!

Drew will want to 'peak' at his state meet.  Our state has done this reorganization thing this year where we now have 6 divisions instead of 3- so 6 very watered-down versions of a state meet, in my opinion.  We are in the third smallest school division.  Drew might even have a shot at winning.  Foot Locker will just be a fun bonus race, unless he does something really shocking between now and States, like run sub 15:30 or something.  His conference (10/30) and sectional meets (11/6)  will be easy for him (unless he's sick or something) so I don't plan to change much of anything up to that point.  His mileage this week was 57 miles ( a little higher than average for him) and I don't think I'm going to increase it any more but rather hold it between 52-57 miles through sectionals.  The state meet is on 11/15 so we have 9 days to get ready after sectionals which I'm happy about.  Here is what I'm thinking, based on earlier conversations on this board...

11/6 Wed- Sectional race
11/7 Thursday- 6-7 miles easy recovery
11/8 Friday - Long run? Not sure about this. It would be about 10-11 miles
11/9 Sat Warm up 15 mins, 2 miles at tempo pace (5:50 ish right now) jog easy 4 mins, then 3x30 second pick ups with 90 second jog recovery, easy 15 mins.  Not sure about this workout, but I am afraid it might be too long to go without something up-tempo between the Wednesday Sectional race and the Tuesday CV workout.
11/10-Sun 8 easy
11/11-Mon 7 miles, light strides
11/12 Tues 15 min wup, last 3 mins at tempo pace. 3x1000@ CV pace with 400 jog recov., then the 800 time trial, going through 400 meters at about 67 seconds, then running the last 400 hard.  Cooldown 15 mins
11/13 Wed- 6-7 miles
11/14 Thurs- 3 miles, then 3x 200 cutdowns 33-32-31ish, jog 200 in between, then jog 800
11/15 Fri- easy 3 miles, light strides
11/16 STATE MEET

This would give him about 44-45 miles the week before the State meet, down from his norm of 52-57.  Is this too low?

After States, I think I'd just go back to our regular schedule of a long run, a slightly reduced CV workout plus 200's,  and a tempo run (4 miles at tempo, not 2 miles like the week before State) for a week, hitting 52-55 miles total again, then repeat the taper week the week of Footlocker.

Any thoughts?  I also am not sure when to discontinue or reduce his strength training.  The kid is a fanatic about doing his strength routine 3 times a week.  I am thinking of just letting him reduce his sets and weight slightly so he doesn't freak out about not doing it. 

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Re: From 18:15 5K to 15:45 in one year, same course

Post by gman » Mon Sep 30, 2013 10:06 am

I like the set up and think the mileage reduction is appropriate.  I understand the hesitancy of the 11/8 long run; I would be torn between the long run and maybe another day of recovery after sectionals...I'm interested to see what Tinman and others think.  As far as the strength training, you might give him a set or two of a few reps (keep it alactic - 8-10 secs per set) after the 11/12 workout, at the latest.  After that, no more strength training, just glute/hip/etc. activation work before the State meet, assuming this is something he does as part of his warm-ups.

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Re: From 18:15 5K to 15:45 in one year, same course

Post by Tinman » Mon Sep 30, 2013 11:45 am

runth8 -

You have the luxury of having 9 days between the sectional and state meet. Very few states have that situation, so you are very lucky!

Below is what I suggest. Your son will peak but not lose strength with this format. Thus, he can run fast at the state meet (by being smart and not hammering the first kilometer, he will run fast overall) and still come back to run at the Footlocker Regional Meet.

1/6 Wed- Sectional race (run the whole course as cool down - don't wait around. Get your warm clothes on, hydrate, put on your training shoes and right away run the 5km course. The pace can be quite slow, if he's tired; that's okay. Just put in the distance!
11/7 Thursday- 7 miles slow and relaxed, using a light, quick stride cadence. No "plodding" steps. Keep the pace easy or slow (today's 5km race-pace plus 2 minutes a mile is plenty fast, and slower than that is better today. Think of today as a long therapetuic run).
11/8 Friday -  6 miles easy + 8 x 100 m at 3200 m speed (rest 15 seconds btw reps) + 1.5 miles easy cool down running
11/9 Sat: Pre-race warm up (15 minutes easy + 3-5 minutes of tempo or threshold plus striders lasting 30 seconds). Then, run 4 x 1-mile at Threshold pace (just add 24-28 seconds per mile to today's 5 km pace (jog 2 minutes btw reps) + 1 x 600 m at 95% effort (run at 1600 m speed for the first 300 m at 800 m speed/effort for the last 300). 2 miles easy c-down running.
11/10-Sun 6 easy
11/11-Mon 6 easy and 8 x 100 m at 5 km speed (rest 15 seconds btw reps) + 1.5 miles easy c-down running
11/12 Tues  Pre-Race warm-up Then, run 2 x 1000@ CV pace with 200 m jog recovery. Next, run 800 m hard (the first lap at 1600 m speed/effort and second lap at 800 m speed/effort).
11/13 Wed- 6 miles easy (he'll be feeling strong today, but tell him to be mindful of his pace; not too fast and keep his stride rate high. Be light on your feet, but don't bounce either, tell him).
11/14 Thurs- 3 miles, then 3 x 200 cut-downs 35-33-31 jog 200 in between, then jog 1 mile c-down
11/15 Fri- Run the State Meet course and include 5 x 50m at 5km racing speed to 1600m speed (progressive, but don't force the speed) (with 150m jogging between reps)
11/16 STATE MEET. Run 25 minutes c-down right after you finish (change clothes, hydrate, put on trainers, and the get going!). After the c-down, change into dry clothes, drink a bunch of sports drink and eat a power bar of some sort. Stay out of the cold, wind, etc., in order to stay healthy so that you can run at the Footlocker Regional Meet feeling great!
Last edited by Tinman on Mon Sep 30, 2013 11:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: From 18:15 5K to 15:45 in one year, same course

Post by runthe8 » Tue Oct 01, 2013 9:41 am

Thanks, Tinman!  That looks great.  I had been toying with the idea of putting in some threshold mile reps, but didn't know where they really fit into the overall picture.  Could you explain a little more about when that workout is appropriate, vs just doing CV or tempo?  I think I would like to do a similar workout one time before that last week before state if it is appropriate just so Drew isn't facing a workout he's never done (thinking of the mental aspect of doing something new that close to the meet for him.)  Thanks.

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Re: From 18:15 5K to 15:45 in one year, same course

Post by Tinman » Tue Oct 01, 2013 3:29 pm

I use Threshold reps for many reasons vs CV reps. I'll cover that in a future book.

Ultimately, in your son's case, there is very little difference between the two choices (threshold or CV) because they achieve the same goals. I chose the one that was less stressful (had less muscle tension) on connective tissue, which is threshold pace. Furthermore, I estimated there would be more novelty by using threshold reps, since you likely have prescribed more CV reps this season.
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Re: From 18:15 5K to 15:45 in one year, same course

Post by BURN7 » Wed Oct 02, 2013 8:47 am

Tinman

I can't wait for that book!  Argh when is it coming out?  Also I noticed the inclusion of fast 600's and 800's at mile pace during that peaking phase.  Would you prescribe that during the whole season or just during the "peaking" phase?

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Re: From 18:15 5K to 15:45 in one year, same course

Post by Tinman » Wed Oct 02, 2013 4:42 pm

I generally prescribe a fast rep at the end of workouts in the last 4 weeks before the peak (state) meet, but that can start as early as 6-weeks out, depending upon how many races your athletes have done, whether or not they did "hard" workouts, and runner's backgrounds/experience.

As you may have gathered, it's not easy using any training method without knowing the specific effects of the applied workouts or training loads, let alone the nuances and individual differences for each of your runners. You've probably learned from reading this website that I use a method that has key principles, such as cycling of workouts, spacing of workouts, progressing workout quality slowly, keeping aerobic training load/volume high, avoiding over-tapering, and so on, and given all that it seems like you "understand" the methods and principles involved. However, just because something looks simple doesn't mean it is simple. I work hard to make complex ideas and methods understandable - I simplify without diluting the quality of the message as best I can - but the reality in my mind of all the factors involved is immensely involved/complicated. I liken the complexity of it to driving an automobile in a major metropolitan city; you have a lot of information to keep track of while navigating the roads on which you drive. To become a skilled driver in the big city, you have to follow key principles, know what to look out for (to avoid accidents), what to pay attention to (to ensure success on the journey ahead), and so on. I suggest that if you want to be a great driver in the big city - given that you didn't grow up there - you need a mentor driver to guide you. The mentor will save you a lot of time, frustration, and help you avoid car crashes.

Since I am on an analogy role, I'll give you guys another one. First some background: My wife and I like to watch Survivorman. It's a TV show about an expert survivalist. He goes to the remotest, most challenging locations in the world, where the average Joe or Jane would die in a day or two. He'll go out to the deep desert, the Arctics, the Amazon, and so forth, and he'll have to figure out how to survive the elements and get to a location where he can find some sort of civilization where he can get a lift out of the mess he's in. Seriously, the repeated challenges he endures are about like having to run an ultramarathon day after day, yet he could die in the process! Okay, now here is the analogy: If my  wife and I, who love Survivorman, learn some tricks about how Survivor man gathers water, starts a fire, or picks some berrries to eat that won't kill him, do you think we could go out to the locations where he goes and live for long? We might do okay for about 12 hours, but once the sun sets we are deep trouble. We need Surivor man to be there to mentor us - to keep us alive and to teach us what to look for, what to avoid (like poisonous foods or snakes), and what key principles and methods to apply. If we have a mentor, we have a good chance of surviving. If we become over-confident and try to survive on our own without having training instruction by Survivor man, we are likely to not succeed.

This website, and the explanations I provide, is intended to mentor you (athletes and coaches alike). I am teaching you what I know, what to look for, how to set up training, what pitfalls you should be aware of, and so on. I give you the structure that I know works at a high percentage rate. I don't know your athletes, specifically, unless you tell me details about them. And, often, even though you may not realize it, you miss important details when you try to explain to me the events or history preceding the current situation. You think there was a creek with clean water a mile back from where you are standing in the Amazon, but you were more scattered in your environmental observations as you passed that spot in the Amazon that you are not 100% sure the creek was next to the boulder, the big Fir tree, on the side of the big hill, or in the valley. You know the creek is there, but you can't really describe all the details as you would like or your memory allows. Experts in any field know that it takes a lot of practice to know what to look for, what should be memorized for later, and the best solutions for problems one faces. The aspiring person has to either get a really good mentor, to speed up the learning curve, or take a lot of time to learn then nuances of the system at-hand. Unfortunately, during that time of learning the nuances some big mistakes can be made.

In all that we do in life, it seems to me, we need expert help; we need mentors to teach us!
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Re: From 18:15 5K to 15:45 in one year, same course

Post by Tinman » Wed Oct 02, 2013 10:44 pm

To add on to what I was saying in the last post, coaching runners, despite what the public or other non-running sport coaches say, is not easy. On the surface it looks like all you do is tell your athletes to put one foot in front of the other as fast as they can go. Yeah, some people think it's a simple sport!  Training to reach one's personal potential is complex, but you have to use a system that uses key principles and keeps the overall application of those principles simple. As Albert Einstein said, keep it simple, but don't simplify it.

Keep asking questions! That's the smartest thing any coach or self-coach can do. There are thousands of scenarios in which principles apply. Every runner is different, but the best, consistently optimal principles apply always to every runner. The confusion often falls into one major category - the "If I work harder I'll get faster" theory of training. That's the tradition, but it sure burns out a lot of athletes - and that goes for every sports. The strong survive, they say, but I say the ones who survive are the one's who are fast adapters to hard training. They shine, and they catch the coach's attention. Humans, and sadly coaches, too often make snap decisions based on short-term results. (Come to think of it, so do most managers in the working/business world. In the business world it's all about appearance. If you look busy, when the manager walks by, you'll be in their good graces. If you stand still, even if there is nothing to do at the moment, your labeled lazy, non-committed, an anarchist of "the way we do things around here."  Real leaders, good leaders, are far different than typical managers, and so are real coach, good coaches (self or not self-coached)  are different; in both cases the ones who think long-term, think big-picture, consider the many factors involved, and adjust the training (or requirements) to the individuals involved.

I'm philosophical at the moment, as you might have noticed, by I think it's important to step back at times and think about bigger ideas, bigger concepts, and bigger intentions. I forget who said it - maybe it was Bill Bowerman - are we here to just to do mindless work, or are we hard to improve, to get better, to make something of the precious time and gifts we have inherited? Maybe I heard it in a movie, I don't know, but I think the important message is to work wisely, strategically, have a plan that works for both the team and the individuals involved, and make sure that you know why you are training a certain way.

Regards,

Thomas
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Re: From 18:15 5K to 15:45 in one year, same course

Post by Spider Man » Thu Oct 03, 2013 6:36 am

Despite the fact that I have over 25 years experience as a runner, & have read the works/manuals of numerous coaches including Lydiard, Bowerman, Cerutty, Canova, Hudson, & from the UK, (Harry) Wilson, Frank Horwill, John Anderson etc. etc., I can honestly say that the advice offered (by Tinman) on this forum has shaped my thinking as a coach as much (if not more than) the famous coaches listed above ... As a result of reading and reflecting upon Tinman's advice I have (for my group of teenage runners) ... adopted a 2 big workouts per week pattern / slowed down training paces / encouraged a bigger volume of training / adopted a more sophisticated periodised approach / developed a successful warm-up protocol etc etc ... with great success as far as the achievements of my young runners is concerned.

So, basically, please keep up the excellent (distance) mentoring you do on this forum.

 

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Re: From 18:15 5K to 15:45 in one year, same course

Post by runthe8 » Thu Oct 03, 2013 7:24 am

I think that using the general principles we learn here, even if not done optimally, produce more consistent results and improvement than other things I've tried in the past.  I know for myself that is true.  I just would like to learn more about how to manipulate the various training tools a little better, to tweak it for the different kids, with their different talents and training ages, etc.  But honestly, they seem to be doing pretty well with my basic understanding of things. 

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