Ryan Hall

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Barney
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Ryan Hall

Post by Barney » Fri Oct 25, 2013 7:46 am

As there has been much discussion about Ryan Hall not starting a number of marathons, dropping out of one, etc., I was wondering Tinman would do with such an athlete.  I recently read an article where former "greats" provided advice to Ryan Hall.  I was curious as to how Tinman and some of the other great minds in this forum would train Ryan Hall.

I am in no way bashing Ryan, as I am a big fan and only hope that he regains form of the past.  The past few years have shown that something is not working.

Curious


Barney

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Re: Ryan Hall

Post by Spider Man » Fri Oct 25, 2013 9:46 am

A personal opinion ... For Ryan Hall (& I think this applied to Paula Radcliffe also) part of the problem has been that the sole focus on the Marathon (& the training that goes with it) has led to small, niggly injuries that have resulted in a long time out of regular competition and, with that, frustration and angst. I think Ryan Hall needs to find the "joy" in running & racing again ... which probably means a year to eighteen months focusing on regular racing over shorter distances.

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Re: Ryan Hall

Post by jKerska » Fri Oct 25, 2013 4:40 pm

Uneducated opinion but I think he's flat and probably frustrated from having done the marathon so many times.

1. Get a group and a coach.
2. Year 1:  1500s,5ks,10ks. No halfs or fulls.
3. Year 2: do two halfs and a summer track season. Get the doggone pop back in his legs so that he can run <60:00 again
4. Year 3: run the marathon again at age 33, rejuvenated without being broken down from the trials and tribulations that marathon training/racing bring.

GK

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Re: Ryan Hall

Post by Tinman » Fri Oct 25, 2013 10:00 pm

I just got done talking about this with my friend from North Carolina earlier today. In fact I used Ryan Hall as a good example of what not to do. He got away from shorter distance speed. Basically for him to get back at the top he must get his 10K strength back.
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Re: Ryan Hall

Post by FTIR » Wed Oct 30, 2013 8:04 am

Can someone ideally suited for the marathon rebuild 10k strength with nothing faster than CV pace (maybe strides) or do they need a significant amount of 3-5k pace?

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Re: Ryan Hall

Post by Tinman » Wed Oct 30, 2013 9:55 am

Yes
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Re: Ryan Hall

Post by FTIR » Wed Oct 30, 2013 10:32 am

When Hall ran the mile in HS or his best 5k in college, do you think he was doing a significant amount of training at 3-5k pace or was he just racing more often?

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Re: Ryan Hall

Post by Tinman » Wed Oct 30, 2013 10:57 am

I'm only guessing, based on who he had for a coach. He had a mix of training; not just a strict focus on the mile. He ran cross-country really well in college, and for sure he was doing enough strength-stamina work besides speed work.

One look at Hall's stride now and you will notice that the snap in his ankles and feet is gone. He's made the mistake of thinking that he can just run mileage forever and get better at the marathon. When you run 80-100 miles per week at the University and then bump it to 120-140 in the 3 years afterward, your endurance will go up and you'll extend your ability to hold a pace (lengthen the duration of pace maintenance; hence you improve in long distance events and probably the 10,000m too. But once your body has adapted to 120-140 miles per week you have pretty much tapped out your adaptive response. You have to work on 10k power if you are a marathon runner, 5k power if you are a half-marathon runner, and 1-mile power if you are a 10,000m runner, once your body has reached it's absorption limits for high mileage. Furthermore, you have to be smart about rotating stimuli in your training schedule. (You'll see rotation of training stimuli in the book I am co-authoring with Magill and Breyer. I've been working on the training schedules for the last 10 days. * Runners I coach or coaches who have hired me to write their training programs and be their adviser can attest to the rotation of training stimuli in my training schedules. Balance of stimuli, I believe, is a key to long-term development. Otherwise you go stale and run into an immovable wall, where no amount of (increased) effort will help you improve.
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Re: Ryan Hall

Post by wysiwyg » Sat Nov 02, 2013 2:37 am

Great thread....you'd think a guy at the top of the tree would be better advised....its a real shame...when you look at meb and Lagat who have ran amazingly into their late 30's whereas hall has struggled in his late 20's.
Just wanted to ask Tinman for an eaxample workout for hall you think he has missed out on?you say cv is fast enough for a marathoner to improve power.....is it possible he hasn't been doin 10k pace  even? Thanks.

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Re: Ryan Hall

Post by Tinman » Sat Nov 02, 2013 2:35 pm

Hall needs to race the 10k more often. He'll soon recognize that he's lost power in that event. Second, he actually needs AP to CV training (aerobic power to critical velocity). He's lost so much in the 10k, not because of endurance, but because the power and stamina of his fast fibers is gone. AP training for him is roughly 5k pace, and CV is roughly 12k pace for him. He needs more hill training too - not long, steady inclines but 30-120 second repeats at higher intensity efforts (800m to 5k intensity). If he does that for 3 months, he'll already gain a lot, but he needs it for about 9 months, I figure, and then he'd be strong enough to blend workouts like that with marathon workouts again.
Last edited by Tinman on Sun Nov 03, 2013 5:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ryan Hall

Post by wysiwyg » Sun Nov 03, 2013 3:46 pm

I see,thankyou
On a different Ryan,Ryan Vail has on his blog his full 14 eek build up to nyc today,he ran 2.13,not what he was hoping for I don't think but that's the marathon....he uses 8*200m hills once or twice a week I presume to keep that snap in his ankles.

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Re: Ryan Hall

Post by Tinman » Sun Nov 03, 2013 5:38 pm

Vail did well! The wind cost him time, for sure.
It is wise to use hill reps, especially when the course has hills and especially when running high mileage.
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