Cycling Training, Racing, Physiology, and Racing Tactics

Featuring TheRunZone?s resident coach Tinman. All participants are welcome to post and reply to topics in this section whether you?re looking for advice, or sharing your own coaching experience.

Moderators: Moderator, Global Moderator

dkggpeters
Hero Member
Hero Member
Posts: 640
Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2012 3:11 pm

Re: Cycling Training, Racing, Physiology, and Racing Tactics

Post by dkggpeters » Fri May 02, 2014 8:08 am

Barney,

I had high hamstring teninopathy really bad last year.  I actually thought that maybe that was it for me and that I was done with fast running.  Even when I hired Tinman at the end of last year I was out of shape,  the hamstring were still very sore and tight.  I ended my marathon training cycle with no hamstring issues at all.  I was able to build up to a few weeks at 100 MPW during the cycle as well with no issues.

Tinman
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 4283
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 12:02 am

Re: Cycling Training, Racing, Physiology, and Racing Tactics

Post by Tinman » Fri May 02, 2014 9:44 am

Cycling races! I have watched many of them this spring while riding my Tour De France bike in my garage. Wow, they have been awesome! Fierce competition! Lots of hills to tackle, too!

Yesterday I watched the last of the spring classics: Liege-Bastogne-Liege. Dan Martin, whom I thought my win, crashed on the final corner (he just slid, not sure why), as he was about to pass the leader. Tough luck!  The course was hilly and has beautiful scenery, by the way.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-04-28/g ... -w/5414368

I am watching the week-long Tour of Romandie (in Switzerland) now. Talk about gorgeous scenery! Wow!

https://www.google.com/search?q=Tour+of ... B555%3B385
Tinman
(coaching available)
Inquire via email:
runfastcoach@gmail.com

dkggpeters
Hero Member
Hero Member
Posts: 640
Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2012 3:11 pm

Re: Cycling Training, Racing, Physiology, and Racing Tactics

Post by dkggpeters » Fri May 02, 2014 9:50 am

I paid for Universal Sports just so I could watch cycling races.  The Giro D'Italia starts next Friday which I am looking forward to.

I will have to record the Tour of Romandie and yes, it is beautiful scenery.

Barney
Full Member
Full Member
Posts: 125
Joined: Mon Feb 05, 2007 5:28 pm

Re: Cycling Training, Racing, Physiology, and Racing Tactics

Post by Barney » Fri May 02, 2014 10:27 am

I actually "made it through" a marathon in February of this year.  I'd say that I was about 75% and ran 3:17 (about 15 min of of PR).  Following that I took it easy.  I have a friend who is a Sports Medicine doctor and I had PRP injection in left hamstring 3.5 weeks ago, so I've just been cycling easy with no running.  I'm feeling good, but just want this behind me.  Previously, I could train, just not to the level that I wanted.  Angry hamstrings don't like running fast! >:(

Once healthy, I plan on contacting Tinman.  He trained me for a short time many years ago.

The Red Panda
Newbie
Newbie
Posts: 1
Joined: Thu May 01, 2014 8:13 pm

Re: Cycling Training, Racing, Physiology, and Racing Tactics

Post by The Red Panda » Sun May 04, 2014 9:01 pm

Tinman,

I'm new to this message board, and also new to cycling.  Perhaps this has been discussed elsewhere but can you give me your thoughts about heart rate training for running versus cycling?  Specifically, should I work at the same heart rate values for both activities, or should my heart rate value be lower for cycling?  My running max heart rate is 180.  I haven't done a max heart rate test on a bike yet ... I'm not sure of the best protocol.

Thanks.

The Red Panda

dkggpeters
Hero Member
Hero Member
Posts: 640
Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2012 3:11 pm

Re: Cycling Training, Racing, Physiology, and Racing Tactics

Post by dkggpeters » Mon May 05, 2014 8:15 am

My experience has been that cycling will be about 5 to 10 bpm lower at the same intensity.

Tinman
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 4283
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 12:02 am

Re: Cycling Training, Racing, Physiology, and Racing Tactics

Post by Tinman » Mon May 05, 2014 10:27 am

As a rule of thumb, I estimate cycling heart rate as 5% lower. Note the max heart rate does vary from day-to-day, as well as during the time of day. My HR max for later morning in cycling is 170-174, typically. For late afternoon, my max is 174-178, normally. In running, I'd be 5-8 beats higher.
Tinman
(coaching available)
Inquire via email:
runfastcoach@gmail.com

monica
Sr. Member
Sr. Member
Posts: 321
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2013 8:37 pm

Re: Cycling Training, Racing, Physiology, and Racing Tactics

Post by monica » Wed Jun 25, 2014 10:35 pm

Tinman - mind me asking a bit about this topic? So, my friend and I decided to do an Ironman relay.. a crazy last minute idea I'll admit. Have 4-5 weeks left. I will have to do 2x35 km biking in the relay and then 31km of running (and the entire distance for swimming but nevermind that). I have virtually no biking experience. I think bike workouts 2 times a week would be good enough for me but which running workouts would I want to replace with the biking workouts?

I'm not really looking for the perfect plan for the bike workouts, I just want to be able to ride something decent off such little training. Instead, I'm looking for the least compromise regarding my running!

My default running schedule is two faster workouts (nothing too hard as this is just summer season) + long run + 3 easy shorter runs (I'm trying to get used to 6 runs per week currently.. it used to be 5 runs per week with just 2 easy short runs).

I was thinking of doing only one faster run per week and have a bike workout in place of the other faster run. Another, easier and shorter bike session before the long run and then long run afterwards (just like it will be in the Ironman relay, though somewhat shorter distances in training).

This week so far: Monday off, Tuesday easy run +strides, Wednesday: first bike workout. It was going to be a faster running workout but I did the bike workout instead. Good decision? I went easy for most of the bike workout and then a bit harder in the last few miles, really hard for last 2 miles lol.

Btw, after the relay is done, I'll probably do a lot less biking for a while because I still want to primarily focus on running. I do have long terms for doing the entire Ironman distance (other triathlon distances first, of course) but my plan is like this, first get really good at running and then maintain that running form and focus more on bike / swim workouts then.

Thanks for any thoughts :)
Last edited by monica on Wed Jun 25, 2014 10:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Tinman
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 4283
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 12:02 am

Re: Cycling Training, Racing, Physiology, and Racing Tactics

Post by Tinman » Wed Jun 25, 2014 11:50 pm

Monica,

You may not have to replace running workouts since cycling mostly works the quads and glutes, compared to running which works mostly hamstrings and gastrocs (lower legs).
And, twice per week cycling is not enough to get ready for 2 sets of 35km of cycling. Trust me, you might get through the first 35k okay, but you would have nothing in the tank for the 2nd 35km ride. I suggest that you training three times per week on the bike, building your cadence efficiency and muscle memory foremost. You need to ride 90-95 revolutions per minute (each leg) to be efficient. Most runners jump on a bike and have trouble going over about 85 revs per minute, and that means they are pushing a big gear and tiring out their muscles big-time. I have become comfortable at 94-96 revs per minutes, and that took me several sessions in which I purposely practiced high revs.

Your bum will have to get used to sitting so long, too, and your lower back will have to adjust to a bent over, low position (in the drops or on tri-bars). Unless you have practiced those low positions a lot, your body will scream with pain on race-day trying to do something new. As an analogy, practicing in a low riding position is akin to practicing in our road racing shoes so that you don't suffer blisters on race-day.

I suggest you first work up your time on the bike at a high cadence, not worrying so much about pushing a big gear. Target 70-75% of your heart rate maximum, which should be around 75-80% of your cycling maximum. That's hard enough to stimulate untrained quads and glutes to process oxygen and burn fat, and your body will thank you for not pushing a big gear too soon.

I suggest that you ride on non-consecutive days, such as Tuesdays, Thursdays, and Saturdays riding. Make Saturday your longest day - about 50% longer than your other days. Build up to 90 minutes of easy/moderate paced/intensity riding before you think about doing hard riding in training.
Tinman
(coaching available)
Inquire via email:
runfastcoach@gmail.com

monica
Sr. Member
Sr. Member
Posts: 321
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2013 8:37 pm

Re: Cycling Training, Racing, Physiology, and Racing Tactics

Post by monica » Thu Jun 26, 2014 8:09 pm

Thanks for the answer and advice. :) I will definitely use your advice!

A few comments. I'm not sure how compatible it is with running in my case - I went for an easy run today and I definitely felt the effects of the biking. My run felt like I was doing it the day after a hard running workout even though it was just biking.

I did exactly that recommended HR range (70-75%) for most of the time during the ride so that's OK, so it might be a cadence issue or that I did go hard for a few minutes at the end.

And, it's true that it's mostly the quads that got a workout but they do get a workout when I run as well. Actually it's the quads that are the bottleneck for me in running. I don't know if I do something wrong with my running but that's been the case for years and haven't figured out the cause yet. It's ok though, I can train just fine with this as long as there is enough recovery for the quads.

So this is why I was thinking of not simply adding the bike sessions on top of my running. I feel I have to go for the low risk option here and cut back on running mileage.
Last edited by monica on Thu Jun 26, 2014 8:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

RunRide
Newbie
Newbie
Posts: 2
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2014 4:27 pm

Re: Cycling Training, Racing, Physiology, and Racing Tactics

Post by RunRide » Thu Aug 07, 2014 5:14 pm

Tinman,

I got back on my mountain bike a few years ago and had big endurance racing plans for 2014.  I completed a 60 mile mountain bike rally in AR in April.  I made sure to maintain my bike fitness to compete in a summer race series.  I was putting in 70 to 75 miles a week.  Then I was hit by a car while riding my bike.  Fortunately, I walked away from the accident with only a broken collarbone and road rash.  Funny thing, I didn't feel any pain from the broken collarbone.  It was all road rash pain.

I have been riding my bike on paved trail (not road)since I was cleared to do so about a month ago.  I usually ride for about 20 miles per ride and average 15 mph.  I am not cleared to ride mountain bike, yet.  However, I miss being on the dirt trail so much that I decided to run on them to enjoy them.  Ten minutes is all it took to make me realize how much I miss running on the dirt.  I liked it so much that I started running 3 miles, three times a week for the past couple of weeks.

I want to run as often as I ride but I know that I have to put in some base training time to my runs before I can add some quality sessions. 

I saw your recommendation on this thread to runners that are picking up cycling.  However, what is your recommendation to cyclist that want to include running to workouts?  I want to get more running and riding per week to get stronger in each but not sure how other than 2 a days. 

This is what I was thinking doing.  Maybe run 3 miles per session for a few weeks until my legs are acclimated to the running.  Then slowly add some mileage to Saturday.


Monday: Off
Tuesday: Run 3 miles
Wednesday: Bike 20 miles
Thursday: Run 3 miles
Friday: Bike 20 miles
Saturday: Run 3 miles
Sunday: Bike 20 miles

Also, one of my goals is to lose weight.  I am currently at 190 and would like to get down to about 170.  This was my weight when I did endurance adventure races back in 2004 to 2006.  I was equally strong runner/mountain biker back then.
Last edited by RunRide on Thu Aug 07, 2014 5:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Tinman
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 4283
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 12:02 am

Re: Cycling Training, Racing, Physiology, and Racing Tactics

Post by Tinman » Fri Aug 08, 2014 1:17 am

I suggest that frequency in running is far more important than in cycling. Run five times per week but not the same amount per run.
Tinman
(coaching available)
Inquire via email:
runfastcoach@gmail.com

monica
Sr. Member
Sr. Member
Posts: 321
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2013 8:37 pm

Re: Cycling Training, Racing, Physiology, and Racing Tactics

Post by monica » Fri Aug 08, 2014 4:47 pm

[quote="Tinman"]
You may not have to replace running workouts since cycling mostly works the quads and glutes, compared to running which works mostly hamstrings and gastrocs (lower legs).
And, twice per week cycling is not enough to get ready for 2 sets of 35km of cycling. Trust me, you might get through the first 35k okay, but you would have nothing in the tank for the 2nd 35km ride.[/quote]

Just a bit of report; I decided to do the 70km cycling in one go; I did not have any issues with having energy in the tank. I did not have time to learn riding without using my hands so I could not splash water on myself without stopping; I opted to not stop - would have lost too much time that way - and in the 90-95F sunny weather I overheated by the end but otherwise the biking was okay.

That was pretty okay considering I only went biking twice a week before the race and - as predicted by me - even just that affected my quads enough so I could no longer do any real workouts for my runs, I did only slow easy runs (and as part of a combo workout, a midlong run after one of the biking sessions once a week). Clearly my running style is too quad-dominant and I didn't have enough time to get them used to the extra load. It was extra load for quads even though I did make sure to keep cadence at around 95rpm. (Only needed one session to get used to cadences over 90)

My running after the biking suffered in the race because of the overheating - I was unable to eat or drink due to that - but I was able to cool myself by frequently splashing water over myself so I was able to run the 20 miles alright in "fat burning mode".

Thanks, your posts here definitely helped!

I just don't understand two things 1) Why did you say that running does not use the quads? It does for me. 2) What kind of tank would have been empty after 35K of cycling? I had no problem with the cycling for the entire 70K

Thanks if you can answer these questions!

Tinman
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 4283
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 12:02 am

Re: Cycling Training, Racing, Physiology, and Racing Tactics

Post by Tinman » Sat Aug 09, 2014 6:50 pm

Normally, quads are not the primary muscles that generate force in running (they absorb shock). Only on hills do quads work extensively, normally. If you "squat" while running, then sure your quads will be used more than is normal.

If you trained only twice a week cycling, and you are not an experienced cyclist (it's not your main event), then for sure you didn't get tired because you simply did not push that hard (despite what "felt" like a hard effort) because your quads (and glutes) were unable to push intensely for a long time. People who cycle primarily can push the intensity much, much higher and for longer than people who are not trained well in cycling. It's very similar to how much faster runners can cover a given distance compared to swimmers or cyclists, who do a little bit of cross-training.
Tinman
(coaching available)
Inquire via email:
runfastcoach@gmail.com

monica
Sr. Member
Sr. Member
Posts: 321
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2013 8:37 pm

Re: Cycling Training, Racing, Physiology, and Racing Tactics

Post by monica » Sat Aug 09, 2014 7:36 pm

Tinman wrote: Normally, quads are not the primary muscles that generate force in running (they absorb shock). Only on hills do quads work extensively, normally. If you "squat" while running, then sure your quads will be used more than is normal.
Can you tell me more about what you mean by "squatting" while running? Maybe it's a problem I'd need to fix! Thanks

If you trained only twice a week cycling, and you are not an experienced cyclist (it's not your main event), then for sure you didn't get tired because you simply did not push that hard (despite what "felt" like a hard effort) because your quads (and glutes) were unable to push intensely for a long time. People who cycle primarily can push the intensity much, much higher and for longer than people who are not trained well in cycling. It's very similar to how much faster runners can cover a given distance compared to swimmers or cyclists, who do a little bit of cross-training.
That makes some sense. Also, I didn't have enough time to figure out what heart rate/intensity I can hold for 70K - especially when it's only part of a larger race - so I just went with some guess. That happened to be around 80% of my maxHR (maxHR when running, no idea yet what max I can get to on the bike). Give or take a couple %. I thought that was good enough for getting through the race without killing myself, as I still had ~20 miles to run :) Yes I can imagine I could perhaps hold 85% if I didn't have to run afterwards & if I trained more on the bike.

Would it have been any different if I had tried to do 2x35K (~1.5 hours rest between them)?
Last edited by monica on Sat Aug 09, 2014 7:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Post Reply