why the short recoveries with CV reps?

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why the short recoveries with CV reps?

Post by JDU » Fri Jun 13, 2014 3:48 pm

I understand 200m is standard for 1000s at CV pace.  In Tinman's interesting article about Interval Recoveries he advocates recovery times about equal to rep times for longer reps, which makes sense to me and seems to work well.  200m is a much shorter -- 90 secs at most. What is the reasoning behind such short recoveries? 
  I always liked Van Aaken's argument that "recovery capacity and performance capacity are not the same thing" and that marathon performance is built by long intervals (2000) with long walking breaks.  He had his 5K guys walk 200 and jog 400 between 400 reps. . . .         

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Re: why the short recoveries with CV reps?

Post by dkggpeters » Fri Jun 13, 2014 4:22 pm

That article is using aerobic power reps (VO2 Max) for shorter reps which are run much faster and at a pace that you can only sustain for about 8 or 9 minutes going full tilt or 5k pace for longer reps which is still pretty fast.  CV is run at a pace which is around 35 to 40 minute pace.  They are hitting different systems.

I wouldn't recommend 2K intervals that require a walking break as this would be a very stressful workout.
Last edited by dkggpeters on Fri Jun 13, 2014 4:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: why the short recoveries with CV reps?

Post by JDU » Fri Jun 13, 2014 6:33 pm

They are not stressful because he says do them 90 seconds slower than your best 2K time, which for me works out to about 20-30 seconds per mile slower than CV. 

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Re: why the short recoveries with CV reps?

Post by Tinman » Fri Jun 13, 2014 11:00 pm

If you are interested in reading more about Dr. Van Aaken, see this link: http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read. ... ead=619851

One thing that Dr. Aaken I have in common is our big belief in systematically building a runner's fitness. Lydiard and Bowerman were the same way! Aerobic is a fundamental part of my training method, along with technical skills work (some of that is by running quicker throughout the year).

CV Reps are roughly 8-12km race pace, depending upon how fast you run those events. Jogging 200m between 1,000m reps at CV (8-1km) race pace is not overly demanding, nor is it too easy to gain a positive training effect. My challenge to you is train using my CV method for 10 weeks. Just try it and see what happens! Do be smart about how you schedule the training by starting at a lower volume of reps and building gradually toward more reps. Most runners find that they only need to run about 5-6 reps to get a good training effect, and by using such a moderate volume they are not obliterated for days like they are when they run faster/harder workouts. Yet, fitness improves. I think my CV method is a testimony to a key principle: You can train effectively and efficiently without beating up your body. If you know how to coordinate training elements, blend them together the right way, and adjust for both performance-capacity and individual needs, you'll discover that running doesn't have to hurt so much; you can get fitter, faster, and enjoy a high level of personal success yet enjoy the process involved.
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Re: why the short recoveries with CV reps?

Post by JDU » Sat Jun 14, 2014 5:53 am

I did an 8 x 1000 progression and felt the need for 400 recoveries in the latter half of the workout. Maybe the pace was a little too aggressive. Or maybe I am just spoiled by taking close to full recoveries. In any case it felt good and certainly did not obliterate me. An interesting alternative to 5K paced stuff, worth trying.

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Re: why the short recoveries with CV reps?

Post by run2thehills » Sun Jun 15, 2014 12:17 pm

Curious about the CV workouts nomenclature. These look similar to what Daniels call "Cruise intervals" and that McMillan also prescribes in his plans. Are those the same?

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Re: why the short recoveries with CV reps?

Post by TexNav » Sun Jun 15, 2014 12:57 pm

Cruise Intervals I believe would be more in-line with Tinman prescribing say 4-5x 1 mile @ 5K + 10% / 60-90 sec. rec; and therefore a slower pace than CV intervals. More of an LT pace range? (I'm sure and hopefully will be corrected if I'm wrong).

CV covers a nice little pace range which I pretty much never see covered by other coaching methods, and at least in Jack Daniel's books, I don't recall him covering either.

It seems there is just this jump from

V02: say 5 x 3 mins VO2 / 3 mins recovery  (1:1 work recover)

to

LT: 6 x 6 mins LT / 1 min recovery  (6:1 work to recover)

But with CV you are getting in more into the (2:1 to 3:1 work to recovery range).

When I first started getting coached by Tinman, this made a really huge difference for me. There was no way I could handle JD's "VO2" on a continuing basis, heck, rarely on a weekly basis. CV gets you a little closer to touching on the VO2, so that it is not completely neglected, but without going over the edge. Others on here can most certainly explain better or at least clarify better.

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Re: why the short recoveries with CV reps?

Post by dilluh » Sun Jun 15, 2014 1:42 pm

I agree with TexNav on this. I read Keith Livingstone's book "Healthy, Intelligent Training" which is largely based on Lydiard's methodology and there was a focus on volume to achieve aerobic development (good), 1 hour marathon paced runs for high-end aerobic development (good) and then jumping into VO2 max intervals at 5k down to 3k pace (not so good for me). Don't get me wrong, I think VO2 max has its place but for many, those workouts are tough to control and can take quite a bit out of you.

Tinman's saying is "keep the ball rolling," meaning consistency and consistent progress trumps almost everything. This is where the CV stuff fits perfectly as you're getting strong pace work and those intervals make for a challenging workout but I feel like I could consistently do them week after week without breaking down and continue to progress. Furthermore, the volume of the CV intervals is such that if you mess up the workout (either bonk out or get a bit over-zealous), you aren't left hanging because it's not that much volume. Whereas if you mess up a big cruise interval session or a hard tempo run, that could really put you in a hole. I'd say CV workouts were a big reason that I felt as comfortable as I did during PRs in the 5k and 10k earlier this spring.

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Re: why the short recoveries with CV reps?

Post by monica » Sun Jun 15, 2014 2:00 pm

TexNav wrote: Cruise Intervals I believe would be more in-line with Tinman prescribing say 4-5x 1 mile @ 5K + 10% / 60-90 sec. rec; and therefore a slower pace than CV intervals. More of an LT pace range? (I'm sure and hopefully will be corrected if I'm wrong).


Yes it's T pace (tempo pace). A tiny little bit faster than 5K + 10%. So yeah in LT range

When I first started getting coached by Tinman, this made a really huge difference for me. There was no way I could handle JD's "VO2" on a continuing basis, heck, rarely on a weekly basis. CV gets you a little closer to touching on the VO2, so that it is not completely neglected, but without going over the edge. Others on here can most certainly explain better or at least clarify better.
Interesting thoughts.

I would agree that having something between VO2max and LT is useful. I don't have a lot of experience here but let me add my thoughts. I'm only going to try doing CV workouts regularly this summer, I didn't before. But I thought about how I did my speed work training before and I realize I probably did some CV stuff on my own. Basically, I would do different interval distances every week, I like to vary it. And my pace always depended on the distance of the intervals. The longer the interval, the slower the pace I would set. I was doing CV-like paces for 1000m's and 1250m's. With 1 or 2 minutes of full rest between each interval. (It didn't seem to make too much difference if it was only 1 minute versus 2 minutes.) Well, 1000's maybe a bit faster than CV pace but 1250's definitely seem to be CV. I've got a lot of improvement off those. I like these longer intervals because it feels like a pretty maintainable pace. (This is not to say I don't like the other interval distances... I only hate the 800m's but everything else is cool from 200m all the way to 2000m/3000m :) )

(For a complete picture I could talk a lot more about how various intervals vs volume of fast paced stuff worked out for improvement but that's not CV pace anymore so its off topic)
Last edited by monica on Sun Jun 15, 2014 2:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: why the short recoveries with CV reps?

Post by monica » Sun Jun 15, 2014 2:08 pm

dilluh wrote: I agree with TexNav on this. I read Keith Livingstone's book "Healthy, Intelligent Training" which is largely based on Lydiard's methodology and there was a focus on volume to achieve aerobic development (good), 1 hour marathon paced runs for high-end aerobic development (good) and then jumping into VO2 max intervals at 5k down to 3k pace (not so good for me). Don't get me wrong, I think VO2 max has its place but for many, those workouts are tough to control and can take quite a bit out of you.


Yeah. I noticed years ago that ~VO2max paced 300/400m's would take out a lot of me. I enjoyed the fast pace but I just felt something afterwards for a while. And I didn't see much improvement off them first. But, I didn't try to do a lot of these workouts and also maybe you need some really good base fitness first for them to work well. This spring, I tried to do them more often with a group (I would always do intervals alone before that). The workouts had more volume than I was used to and it was all really fast 300/400/800 stuff. I had to wait ~10 days before repeating any of these workouts with the group... They would do them twice a week, no way I would do that!! So I only went back to the group when I felt ready for the next one. Overall, it worked out well, I got pretty sweet improvements! But I'm pretty sure that if I had tried to do these workouts more often, it would have been really bad for me.  >:(

Tinman's saying is "keep the ball rolling," meaning consistency and consistent progress trumps almost everything. This is where the CV stuff fits perfectly as you're getting strong pace work and those intervals make for a challenging workout but I feel like I could consistently do them week after week without breaking down and continue to progress. Furthermore, the volume of the CV intervals is such that if you mess up the workout (either bonk out or get a bit over-zealous), you aren't left hanging because it's not that much volume. Whereas if you mess up a big cruise interval session or a hard tempo run, that could really put you in a hole. I'd say CV workouts were a big reason that I felt as comfortable as I did during PRs in the 5k and 10k earlier this spring.
One more reason why I'd like to try this :)

I don't understand the part about bonking out. Do you mean, you start doing the workout and midway you realize you shouldn't have started? (Figuring out you're having a bad day)

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Re: why the short recoveries with CV reps?

Post by dilluh » Sun Jun 15, 2014 3:04 pm

In this sense I mean bonking out to be running a workout at a pace you can't quite handle. Say you're set to run a 4x1000m at CV pace of 3:45. Maybe you're a little off, or the weather is a bit more humid than you thought stepping out your front door and you go out at run 3:47, 3:52, 3:55, 3:53. Kind of struggling a bit to even hit these paces. Obviously it would've been more optimal to assess the situation better before hand and maybe go into the workout thinking 3:52s are more realistic FOR THAT DAY, but you didn't and you struggled, couldn't find a rhythm and fell off pace. It's ok though because 4x1000m of slower than 10k pace isn't going to throw you in some deep hole that'll take weeks to climb out of. It's not that much volume.

You could make the same argument in the opposite direction, too. Maybe you're fitter than you thought and blast through that same workout averaging 3:40 feeling like a boss at the end. Again, not that much harm done from doing a little faster than 10k pace for 4x1000.

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Re: why the short recoveries with CV reps?

Post by Tinman » Sun Jun 15, 2014 5:17 pm

CV stands for Critical Velocity. In 1989, when I started graduate school in Exercise Science, I took a statistics course. In that course our professor talked about CV, which meant critical value, a cut-off point of significance (using t-scores or z-scores). The null hypothesis was rejected if the tested hypothesis exceed the CV boundary. Thus, the test value was significantly different. (I hope I remember all that correctly! I had the same type of stats course, four years ago, while working on my Masters degree in Business Administration, but I may not be exact in my memory of it all since I don't use it in my daily life.) Anyway, our professor required that we form hypothesis in sports or exercise and then do the stats to ascertain the CV. It just so happened my mind was occupied greatly with fine-tuning training methodology for long distance runners, since at the time I was a volunteer cross-country coach at the University of Wisconsin - La Crosse. I had been gathering data on running workouts since the previous spring, when I coached the steeplechase runners, my own data, and the data from workouts that were run by our team during the cross-country season. I noted that there appeared to be a fairly common relative speed that seemed ideal. During the previous spring I calculated that pace relative to the 3,000m times of runners that I coached. During the summer I gather data on myself, relative to 5k pace (since I ran 3 road race in-town that were of that distance). And, during that autumn, I collected data relative to 4-mile and 8,000m cross-country times. I put them all into one form - a regression equation that I developed to identify the speed at VO2 max, which at that time I called MAP (Maximum Aerobic Pace). Essentially, the ideal time become CV pace...a pace above which I determined was too hard to run regularly and run without a lot of fatigue. Relating it to a common race distance, it was 6.21 seconds per 400m slower than average pace for 3,000m. Because the term Critical Value was something my athletes could not relate to, I just changed the V to Velocity, which was more logical. Later, I defined the pace more specifically at 90% of VO2 max.
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Re: why the short recoveries with CV reps?

Post by monica » Sun Jun 15, 2014 6:09 pm

[quote="dilluh"]
In this sense I mean bonking out to be running a workout at a pace you can't quite handle. Say you're set to run a 4x1000m at CV pace of 3:45. Maybe you're a little off, or the weather is a bit more humid than you thought stepping out your front door and you go out at run 3:47, 3:52, 3:55, 3:53. Kind of struggling a bit to even hit these paces. Obviously it would've been more optimal to assess the situation better before hand and maybe go into the workout thinking 3:52s are more realistic FOR THAT DAY, but you didn't and you struggled, couldn't find a rhythm and fell off pace. It's ok though because 4x1000m of slower than 10k pace isn't going to throw you in some deep hole that'll take weeks to climb out of. It's not that much volume.

You could make the same argument in the opposite direction, too. Maybe you're fitter than you thought and blast through that same workout averaging 3:40 feeling like a boss at the end. Again, not that much harm done from doing a little faster than 10k pace for 4x1000.
[/quote]

OK, I see. By volume, do you actually mean a combination of intensity and distance covered? Because, running 12x400 or 16x300 isn't much more distance than 4x1000 and is less distance than 4x1250 yet it was the 12x400's and 16x300's that required more recovery afterwards, in my case anyway.

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Re: why the short recoveries with CV reps?

Post by dilluh » Sun Jun 15, 2014 6:35 pm

I mean that 4000m is not that much total distance for that pace (CV). You mentioned that you did your 300s and 400s at VO2 max which is not CV. Granted, those reps are shorter but that's still quite a bit of volume of 5k pace work. Also like you mentioned, which I think may be part of it, is that if you don't have a good aerobic foundation to start with, VO2max work can really be tough on you. I think this is what I was finding when I was trying to translate Livingstone's book for myself. I thought I had a good enough aerobic base to jump into 1 or 2 VO2max workouts per week but it was clear from the erratic running that ensued that I wasn't. For what it's worth, I still think Livingstone's book is very good and has a lot of good information in it, but coaching experience will trump guessing and trying while reading a book 9 times out of 10. Enter Tinman.

I know that it's a small difference but there is something about doing 5k pace work that takes significantly more out of me than 10k pace work. 90% of VO2max and VO2max aren't that different, but apparently they are for me. Again, this isn't saying that we should throw VO2 max workouts out the window - they have a time and a place but it all has to be in context of the runner's strengths, what they're training for and where they are at in their development toward a key race. I think Tinman was keen to look at the data and statistics and find those paces that appear to be critical for consistent development. Is CV the be all end all magic workout? Of course not but it certainly helps to know what kind of pace will consistently work the high power stamina end of things that are key for many long distance races.

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Re: why the short recoveries with CV reps?

Post by Tinman » Sun Jun 15, 2014 9:22 pm

CV is representative of a key principle: Train, Don't Strain (a la Lydiard). In my words, train to gain fitness; don't train to beat yourself up. You can get a very good result by training at CV pace, or close to it, yet it won't push you over the edge, unless you go crazy and do too much of it. As I stated, the typical runner only need about 5 x 1km @ CV pace to gain a positive training effect, and the same runner can recover from that workout in two days, which means that other types of training can be executed too.
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