why the short recoveries with CV reps?

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Re: why the short recoveries with CV reps?

Post by dkggpeters » Wed Jun 18, 2014 12:42 pm

Since Livingston's interpretation of Lydiard is being mentioned, I found the following really interesting:

It only takes ONE poorly thought out, too-hard session, to drive six inch nails into one’s own coffin. As Australian exercise physiologist and super-coach Dick Telford has stated, a “cloud of fatigue” ensues. Any confidence gained goes out the window, to be replaced by anxiety. Not good. If only the athlete had jogged slowly around the park for most of his runs , and done a little specific pace work in between races to maintain development; then we’d see another PB!

Livingstone, Keith (2012-03-01). Healthy Intelligent Training, 2nd Ed (Kindle Locations 624-627). Cardinal Publishers Group. Kindle Edition.

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Re: why the short recoveries with CV reps?

Post by dilluh » Wed Jun 18, 2014 1:40 pm

Can anyone provide some scientific evidence for very easy mid-long or long runs "curing" central nervous system (CNS) fatigue? I know in practice that this works as I've used it in my own training in years past but I have a friend who I'm fairly sure is being bitten by the CNS fatigue bug but doesn't believe that slow running will help get him back on track.

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Re: why the short recoveries with CV reps?

Post by dkggpeters » Wed Jun 18, 2014 3:30 pm

I don't know of any scientific evidence as there is not a lot relating to over training.  I would guess try looking at Noakes but I don't recall him talking about long easy runs to cure CNS fatigue.  I have heard it mentioned before and believe it.  I just don't know the science about it.

Tinman needs to answer this one.

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Re: why the short recoveries with CV reps?

Post by Captainblood » Thu Jun 19, 2014 9:31 am

I think one advantage of CVs (and others have stated this on previous threads) is that your chance of digging a serious hole for yourself is greatly reduced.

When you are doing hard mile repeats with 4 or 5 minutes rest chances are you could feel pretty good at the beginning of your fourth or fifth repeat only to fall apart a few minutes into the repeat.  Runners are compulsive animals and it is real hard to stop in the middle (of a repeat or a workout) so we grind it out and potentially dig a hole that leads to injury or overtraining.

With a 1000 meters work and 60 seconds recovery it becomes a lot more apparent when to call it quits.  Even if you do one more than you should have the potential for a big mistake shrinks dramatically.

Now what always is interesting to me is comparing the effectiveness of different workouts regardless of days required to recover.  Is a 3 x 1 mile at VO2 max with 4 minutes recovery going to advance your fitness more than 5 x 1000 at CV with a minute recovery?  Or are you better off with a 3 mile tempo?

I do not know the answer to these questions.  But I can say from experience that the CV workout is easier to recover from.  And I also know that sometimes I overdo it just a bit and I pay the price with excessive soreness and getting sick.  Are CV workouts essentially hitting singles and doubles and VO2 max and tempos are trying to hit triples and home runs?  I don't know.

But I believe in Tinman's methods.  And there are a lot of people who have worked with him extensively who have had a lot of success.  So I just try punch the time clock every day, stay healthy, train smart, and keep the ball rolling.
Last edited by Captainblood on Thu Jun 19, 2014 9:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: why the short recoveries with CV reps?

Post by dkggpeters » Fri Jun 20, 2014 10:40 am

[quote="Captainblood"]
I think one advantage of CVs (and others have stated this on previous threads) is that your chance of digging a serious hole for yourself is greatly reduced.

When you are doing hard mile repeats with 4 or 5 minutes rest chances are you could feel pretty good at the beginning of your fourth or fifth repeat only to fall apart a few minutes into the repeat.  Runners are compulsive animals and it is real hard to stop in the middle (of a repeat or a workout) so we grind it out and potentially dig a hole that leads to injury or overtraining.

With a 1000 meters work and 60 seconds recovery it becomes a lot more apparent when to call it quits.  Even if you do one more than you should have the potential for a big mistake shrinks dramatically.

Now what always is interesting to me is comparing the effectiveness of different workouts regardless of days required to recover.  Is a 3 x 1 mile at VO2 max with 4 minutes recovery going to advance your fitness more than 5 x 1000 at CV with a minute recovery?  Or are you better off with a 3 mile tempo?

I do not know the answer to these questions.  But I can say from experience that the CV workout is easier to recover from.  And I also know that sometimes I overdo it just a bit and I pay the price with excessive soreness and getting sick.  Are CV workouts essentially hitting singles and doubles and VO2 max and tempos are trying to hit triples and home runs?  I don't know.

But I believe in Tinman's methods.  And there are a lot of people who have worked with him extensively who have had a lot of success.  So I just try punch the time clock every day, stay healthy, train smart, and keep the ball rolling.
[/quote]

I believe a big part of the equation would be what distance are you training for.  I know for me whom is primarily interested in the Marathon of the above I only did CV or equivalent.  If I was racing the 5K then I could see building up to a 3 x 1 mile at 5K pace (True VO2 max would be about 1.5 to 2 mile mile pace for me so that would be to stressful).  I doubt that you would want to do a workout like this week in and week out.  I could see building up to it. 12 x 400, 8 x 600, 6 x 800, 4 x 1200, 3 x 1600.  I also didn't do any threshold runs for 20 minutes.  I did a lot of 1 mile repeats with short recoveries but never 20 minutes straight up.  Once again, if I was racing a shorter distance then I could see doing more of them.

My opinion is that for bang for your buck I would have to say CV intervals would fit the bill for all distances.  I saw them being done a lot even by the High School track runners doing the 800 to 2 mile.  They are also a staple up to the marathon.

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Re: why the short recoveries with CV reps?

Post by monica » Thu Jun 26, 2014 10:27 pm

[quote="Schebo"]
I have never met an elite runner who been doing only easy running for a prolonged period during base training. The concept of running repeats at around 10k pace with a short active recovery during base phase has been around for ages. I have a training book written by Anders Gärderud in the 1980s where he advocates such a training approach.
[/quote]

Why do you think there is this trend that elite runners don't just do easy running? Is it a less effective way of base building?

My own experience is not much but I tried this once a while ago, it allowed me to go higher than ever mileage and my pace kept improving steadily at that low intensity. However I saw no effect of that at the higher intensities. It's another story how I didn't manage the transition to faster workouts after that, it turned out to be a disaster* and so I lost a few months of valuable training time there, along with figuring out I had low iron levels as well. (*: I didn't get injured in the classic sense, my quads just got hopelessly shot.. call that an injury I guess, legs that are unable to run a faster than easy pace without steadily worsening muscle pain..)

So anyway.. it's a question left unanswered so far for me as I didn't repeat that experiment: if I had done the transition correctly, would that base build have allowed for great gains when introducing the faster workouts? Or, are you trying to say that this, while it may work, is just not as effective as doing some faster paces during the base building phase itself? Thanks if you can answer this. :)


[quote="Tinman"]
I think people did not understand Lydiard's training method well, and the consequence was runners doing mileage without having variation in training intensity. In fact Lydiard prescibed a strong paced 10 miler each week during the base (marathon) conditioning that all runners he worked with did. A quick 10 mile run has a simar effect as a few half mile to mile paced reps at CV or 10 km pace; the only difference is the intervals at CV or 10 km pace more closely resemble the racing stride for track runners.[/quote]

Is that difference significant for anything? That is, if you do CV's or other fast paces, will your legs feel fresher / keep better turnover than if you were just doing 10mile MP tempos? My experience so far indicates that.. I don't know however if that even matters for effective training.. maybe not-so-fresh legs is irrelevant in terms of how much result I can get from the training?! I hope my question makes sense :) Thanks :)



[quote="dkggpeters"]
Since Livingston's interpretation of Lydiard is being mentioned, I found the following really interesting:

It only takes ONE poorly thought out, too-hard session, to drive six inch nails into one’s own coffin. As Australian exercise physiologist and super-coach Dick Telford has stated, a “cloud of fatigue” ensues. Any confidence gained goes out the window, to be replaced by anxiety. Not good. If only the athlete had jogged slowly around the park for most of his runs , and done a little specific pace work in between races to maintain development; then we’d see another PB![/quote]

Just one? :o Done on already somewhat fatigued legs, right? Very interesting about Telford.


[quote="dilluh"]
Can anyone provide some scientific evidence for very easy mid-long or long runs "curing" central nervous system (CNS) fatigue? I know in practice that this works as I've used it in my own training in years past but I have a friend who I'm fairly sure is being bitten by the CNS fatigue bug but doesn't believe that slow running will help get him back on track.[/quote]

Mind me asking, how do I recognize if I have CNS fatigue bug? What causes it? Maybe that's what I had many times when trying to increase mileage on all easy-ish running? (A bit of a mix of different aerobic intensities, of course, but all of it definitely slower than MP)

Anyway I'm not sure if I ever had this CNS problem but I did run into weird cases of fatigue before. I have no idea if this will be helpful for anyone, your friend or anyone else, but just in case it is, I'll describe my fix for it. I found the cure for me is give myself only a couple of days very easy short running and/or rest day(s) and then the day after, again an easy run but in the middle of that try a couple miles of ~MP effort. Just a couple of miles. Or maybe faster than MP but nothing straining and certainly a very low volume of it. Then after that run, legs start to feel normal and I ease back into normal training. I can't really explain why but this works better for me than simply a longer string of several days of easy run/rest. Whenever I tried a string of easy runs/rest days to come out of the fatigue, I just ended up feeling that my legs had completely forgotten how to run as those easy runs continued to feel too hard.

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Re: why the short recoveries with CV reps?

Post by dkggpeters » Fri Jun 27, 2014 9:03 am

[quote="monica"]
[quote="dkggpeters"]
Since Livingston's interpretation of Lydiard is being mentioned, I found the following really interesting:

It only takes ONE poorly thought out, too-hard session, to drive six inch nails into one’s own coffin. As Australian exercise physiologist and super-coach Dick Telford has stated, a “cloud of fatigue” ensues. Any confidence gained goes out the window, to be replaced by anxiety. Not good. If only the athlete had jogged slowly around the park for most of his runs , and done a little specific pace work in between races to maintain development; then we’d see another PB![/quote]

Just one? :o Done on already somewhat fatigued legs, right? Very interesting about Telford.

[/quote]

Just one poorly laid out workout that is overtaxing can ruin your season.  I am not talking about running on tired legs or running a little bit to fast or to hard.  As an example, last year I know 3 individuals whom did a marathon simulation run and they all nailed the workout but fell well short of what the workout indicated that they should have done.  The session is poorly laid out in my opinion and in order to complete the session, to much stress is placed on you.

The session was 24 miles as follows:

- 4 miles easy
- 6 miles moderate pace (MP +30)
- 6 miles at MP
- 6 miles at HMP
- 2 miles easy

What made this session overly difficult is doing 6 miles at HMP after already doing 12 miles of harder running.  In my opinion, 6 miles straight at HMP is a hard session by itself.

I also witnessed a couple of individuals this year try a run labeled as "the truth run" which is somewhat similar to the above.  One nailed it but he was completely toast at the end of the last hard section and practically had to crawl home.  I informed him that I was concerned that he over extended and he tried to explain that this was not the case and he was fine.  Needless to say, his sub 3 hour attempt was a complete bust.  He left his race out on the road in a training run.  If he didn't do this session, I am confident that he would have gone sub 3.

I have also heard instances from individuals whom had successful races in which in there last sessions they were clicking and they felt effortless, yet their coaches cut the sessions short as to not over extend. They got mad at their coaches at the time and wanted to finish up the session.  They ended up having a good coach that recognized that it doesn't take much to upset the apple cart and understood the risk vs reward.
Last edited by dkggpeters on Fri Jun 27, 2014 9:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: why the short recoveries with CV reps?

Post by dkggpeters » Fri Jun 27, 2014 9:22 am

[quote="monica"]
Mind me asking, how do I recognize if I have CNS fatigue bug? What causes it? Maybe that's what I had many times when trying to increase mileage on all easy-ish running? (A bit of a mix of different aerobic intensities, of course, but all of it definitely slower than MP)

[/quote]

Whenever you do a hard session you are going to get some CNS fatigue.  Your CNS will recover on your easy days and be recover enough to handle another session.  The problem is if you have chronic CNS fatigue, which is when you continue to place stress before your body is recovered.  If you continue to keep placing stress on a continual basis while your CNS has not had the ability to recover from the previous session then you eventually dig a hole and your CNS basically is overextended. It then shuts down to protect yourself.  When it shuts down you have over training syndrome which can takes months to recover from.  In fact, you may never fully recover from it.  Some feel that the Boston race in the Heat between Salazar and Beardsley cause them to both over extend to a point in which they could never fully recover from.

You should not get CNS fatigue from just doing easy mileage unless you were trying to run a ton of miles or did a very large increase in mileage over a short period of time.  You typically get if from racing to much or by doing to many hard sessions which you cannot recover from.  You are basically over extending yourself.

How to get rid of CNS fatigue that causes issues is the tricky part.  It may be remedied by just doing easy miles for a week or so.  You may need to take a few days off.  In chronic situations it could take you months to fully recover from.

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Re: why the short recoveries with CV reps?

Post by dilluh » Fri Jun 27, 2014 12:27 pm

[/quote]


The session was 24 miles as follows:

- 4 miles easy
- 6 miles moderate pace (MP +30)
- 6 miles at MP
- 6 miles at HMP
- 2 miles easy

[/quote]

Good lord! That is an insane workout. Yeah, 6 miles at HMP by itself can be a solid very session. This looks tougher than some of the special workouts that Canova prescribes, i.e., fast long runs at close to marathon race pace. Tinman, can you calculate which would be harder: the 24 mile session posted above OR 25 miles at 93% of marathon pace (a session Moses Mosop did under Canova about a month prior to the 2011 Boston Marathon)? My guess is the latter but not by much.

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Re: why the short recoveries with CV reps?

Post by dkggpeters » Fri Jun 27, 2014 1:16 pm

For me the 24 mile session would be at 6:38 avg pace vs a 6:43 if I ran the 25 mile at 93%.  This is assuming a 6:15 MP.  The 24 mile session would be much harder due to the volume of MP and HMP miles.  I have done long runs at 93% before and they are hard but not as bad as doing extended pace work.

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Re: why the short recoveries with CV reps?

Post by Tinman » Sat Jun 28, 2014 12:58 am

dilluh -

To calculate the training stress, I'd need more details.

What was the reference performance time of the individuals doing the workout? Was the person doing the workout a 16:00 (5k) runner or an 18:00 runner, for example?

What does "easy" pace of that workout mean to them?

I'd need pace details, etc.
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Re: why the short recoveries with CV reps?

Post by dilluh » Sat Jun 28, 2014 12:02 pm

Hmmm... maybe Dave could answer this better as he would have an idea of the abilities of the runners he mentioned. If I had to guess they were likely mid-18 5kers but I really don't know. As for Mosop, he might not be a good example because that was the "wind aided" 2:03:xx Boston year and I have no idea what kind of shape he was in for a 5k. He did run a 58:30 20k about 6 months prior to 2011 Boston and a WR 58:03 20,000m not too long after. Maybe Dave's calculation using his own marathon performance makes the point adequately - 24 miles with a significant volume of HM pace is a damn tough session!

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Re: why the short recoveries with CV reps?

Post by monica » Sat Jun 28, 2014 12:34 pm

dkggpeters wrote:Just one poorly laid out workout that is overtaxing can ruin your season.  I am not talking about running on tired legs or running a little bit to fast or to hard.  As an example, last year I know 3 individuals whom did a marathon simulation run and they all nailed the workout but fell well short of what the workout indicated that they should have done.  The session is poorly laid out in my opinion and in order to complete the session, to much stress is placed on you.
That 24 mile session seems crazy yeah. But, say you already did the damage by running the workout but you still have a couple of weeks until your marathon. Is it best to treat this then as a race and allow as much recovery as after a race? Taking those two weeks easy, should it not allow enough recovery? Or are you trying to say that this workout is done on top of already heavy training? I guess with a race the difference is that you do have a bit of taper/rest before the race. And no extra rest before this 24 mile workout, right?

dkggpeters wrote:Whenever you do a hard session you are going to get some CNS fatigue.  Your CNS will recover on your easy days and be recover enough to handle another session.  The problem is if you have chronic CNS fatigue, which is when you continue to place stress before your body is recovered.  If you continue to keep placing stress on a continual basis while your CNS has not had the ability to recover from the previous session then you eventually dig a hole and your CNS basically is overextended. It then shuts down to protect yourself.
So this is just plain overtraining? Why is the CNS emphasized here? Do you mean imbalance in sympathetic/parasympathetic systems?

You should not get CNS fatigue from just doing easy mileage unless you were trying to run a ton of miles or did a very large increase in mileage over a short period of time.  You typically get if from racing to much or by doing to many hard sessions which you cannot recover from.  You are basically over extending yourself.
I don't know if it was CNS fatigue or just some muscle thing. But yes, it was usually from easy mileage or easy&moderate paced mileage. Wasn't always a "ton" of miles. I'll make a new thread on that or something, I don't want to go off topic about this here.
Last edited by monica on Sat Jun 28, 2014 1:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: why the short recoveries with CV reps?

Post by Tinman » Sat Jun 28, 2014 2:17 pm

Monica-

I am reminded of my high school science teacher, a man who was on the team that developed precursors to the internet for the Army before the public ever heard of the computer (of course elite scientists had been working on communication systems via computer since at least the 1940s). He used to put his hand up to our boisterous, engaged, college-bound, advanced science class, and that was always his sign for us to stop and think. He'd say, "Ask a good question, and wait for good answers. Think about the answers. Apply the answers. Then, create new questions. If you don't think through the applications of the first answer to the first problem, you cover the same ground, over and over."  He had a clear way of making his point. Minds that thrive on thinking tend to over-think! Based on the Marcus Pareto Principle of Economics, he said that simple answers cover 80% of all a person ever needs in life.

It's therefore my opinion that better answers come from our community when each post either asks a single question or answers a single question.

Thank you!

Tinman
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Re: why the short recoveries with CV reps?

Post by monica » Sun Jun 29, 2014 9:09 pm

[quote="Tinman"]
Monica-

I am reminded of my high school science teacher, a man who was on the team that developed precursors to the internet for the Army before the public ever heard of the computer (of course elite scientists had been working on communication systems via computer since at least the 1940s). He used to put his hand up to our boisterous, engaged, college-bound, advanced science class, and that was always his sign for us to stop and think. He'd say, "Ask a good question, and wait for good answers. Think about the answers. Apply the answers. Then, create new questions. If you don't think through the applications of the first answer to the first problem, you cover the same ground, over and over."  He had a clear way of making his point. Minds that thrive on thinking tend to over-think! Based on the Marcus Pareto Principle of Economics, he said that simple answers cover 80% of all a person ever needs in life.

It's therefore my opinion that better answers come from our community when each post either asks a single question or answers a single question.

Thank you!

Tinman
[/quote]

That's your opinion. However, your template does not fit me and I certainly don't need to be told to change my way of learning about things. I work whatever way I work and that's it. And I want the 20% too.

If anyone doesn't feel like answering all questions, only the questions that seem to be important, that's fine. It's up to every poster here what they see as relevant enough.

If asking more than one question is against the forum rules, do let me know.
Last edited by monica on Sun Jun 29, 2014 9:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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