Tinman marathon build up

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dilluh
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Tinman marathon build up

Post by dilluh » Tue Aug 05, 2014 12:45 pm

Here are some of the differences between my first marathon build up (generic online Phitzinger) and the current one (Tinman schedule) that I've noticed so far. This is just evidence and affirmation for Tinman’s general approach to prepping for the marathon:

- Less “fill in” mileage on easy days. My first marathon in 2011 I was running 8-10 milers regularly as easy/recovery runs. Now most of those runs are shorter.

- Less emphasis on 5k speed in the middle of the build up. By looking at previous periods of great training for me, understanding what types of runs make me feel great and knowing what didn’t work in the previous marathon build up - Tinman and I concluded that it was wise to simply skip this section normally devoted to increasing aerobic power and just consistently go with what works best for me. Obviously this specific approach is not for everyone but it just shows the importance of individualization.

- Absolutely no skipped sessions. I attribute this to be a function of balanced training between volume and intensity of “big” workouts and easy/recovery runs.

- The importance of “priming” a big workout with small amounts of “stuff” on the previous day. I won’t go into the specifics but I think this has made a world of difference on the execution of big workouts.

- No peaks or valleys - consistency, consistency, consistency. I’ve hit every single run and workout so far with the right feel/effort. No bonking, no superman-ing or workout hero-ing, no drag-assing, no barely hanging on, etc. I think this is huge for a marathon build up in particular.

- Not worrying about fading in the weeks before the marathon. I trust Tinman and have put away any doubts regarding what mileage or workouts I’m currently running versus what other people around me are doing for their fall marathon preparation. I know someone who is at a similar level to me who is targeting a marathon the week after mine and has already done three 20+ milers at moderate pace on a Saturday and then goes out for a hilly run on Sunday on the trails. He heroically boasts about how he enjoys hitting the wall on those Sunday runs and having to walk the final two miles to get home and curl up with a mountain of food. I can’t possibly see how that’s sustainable for the next 2 months. Meanwhile, I’m gradually working toward the first 20 miler, every Saturday long run has included quality at race pace and don’t feel like I’m going to die or need to be peeled off the road at the end.

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Re: Tinman marathon build up

Post by dkggpeters » Tue Aug 05, 2014 1:16 pm

[quote="dilluh"]
- Not worrying about fading in the weeks before the marathon. I trust Tinman and have put away any doubts regarding what mileage or workouts I’m currently running versus what other people around me are doing for their fall marathon preparation. I know someone who is at a similar level to me who is targeting a marathon the week after mine and has already done three 20+ milers at moderate pace on a Saturday and then goes out for a hilly run on Sunday on the trails. He heroically boasts about how he enjoys hitting the wall on those Sunday runs and having to walk the final two miles to get home and curl up with a mountain of food. I can’t possibly see how that’s sustainable for the next 2 months. Meanwhile, I’m gradually working toward the first 20 miler, every Saturday long run has included quality at race pace and don’t feel like I’m going to die or need to be peeled off the road at the end.
[/quote]

We had a girl in our running group whom beat me on all my long runs before Boston.  She ran 3:07 and I ran 2:44:50.  She was racing her long runs and I was building strong aerobic engine.  Yes, it was hard many times to let them go, but it paid off big time.

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Re: Tinman marathon build up

Post by monica » Tue Aug 05, 2014 5:25 pm

This stuff you're talking about sounds great... Good luck with your training! :)

[quote="dilluh"]
I know someone who is at a similar level to me who is targeting a marathon the week after mine and has already done three 20+ milers at moderate pace on a Saturday and then goes out for a hilly run on Sunday on the trails. He heroically boasts about how he enjoys hitting the wall on those Sunday runs and having to walk the final two miles to get home and curl up with a mountain of food.[/quote]

What's so enjoyable about walking home???

I do understand the part about enjoying running on very low glycogen - I think I got that feeling a few times while preparing for ironman relay with combo workouts (cycling + running). What I enjoyed about that was that I still felt my strength and felt like I could still keep moving forever at a comfortable pace, which wasn't even really that terribly slow - for my fitness level anyway (about 1min/mile slower than half marathon pace had me feel like I could go on forever).

On another topic. You mentioned no peaks and valleys. I'm sure this is the most sustainable training yes. I just want to mention that I once accidentally ran into this: consistent loading to the point of almost overloading for a few weeks, then a bit of rest, then result: improvement. I have not tried to see how sustainable that was, though. Just very effective, is all I could say about it.

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Re: Tinman marathon build up

Post by shug » Tue Aug 05, 2014 5:30 pm

- The importance of “priming” a big workout with small amounts of “stuff” on the previous day. I won’t go into the specifics but I think this has made a world of difference on the execution of big workouts.

What are specifically referring to when you mention "priming" with small "stuff?"

Is the focus on muscle tension; i.e., strides or hill charges the day prior to a big workout?
Last edited by shug on Tue Aug 05, 2014 5:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

dilluh
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Re: Tinman marathon build up

Post by dilluh » Tue Aug 05, 2014 6:25 pm

[quote="shug"]
- The importance of “priming” a big workout with small amounts of “stuff” on the previous day. I won’t go into the specifics but I think this has made a world of difference on the execution of big workouts.

What are specifically referring to when you mention "priming" with small "stuff?"

Is the focus on muscle tension; i.e., strides or hill charges the day prior to a big workout?
[/quote]

In short, yes. I don't want to give Tinman's expertise away for free by posting any portion of a full schedule but yeah, you are on the right track.

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Re: Tinman marathon build up

Post by dilluh » Sun Aug 10, 2014 12:38 pm

Cautionary tale about training for marathons in hot climates (central Texas for me) and overtraining in general...

Earlier in this thread I mentioned a runner I know who's been doing 20+ milers at moderate pace and then going out the next day for a glycogen depletion run which typically ends with him walking portions of it. Well, today he really bonked out and is suffering a bit of heat exhaustion with mild nausea, cold sweats and major fatigue. On top of that he reported that an old hamstring injury has started to nag him again. "Muscling through" workouts is one thing but to do it in this kind of climate is asking for trouble. Luckily I've been living here long enough to know what my limits are and how to pace myself. Yesterday's long run for me included some MP miles at the end but since it was so damned hot out I avoided monitoring the pace and just went by feel seeing as it was 83 degree heat index (serious humidity) at the start of my run (6:30 AM) and only climbed from there. Even with slowing down it was still challenging but I'm perfectly fine today. Tinman's advice to train to your fitness and surroundings ON THAT DAY are very important to heed  - especially when you combine hot weather with big workouts.

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Re: Tinman marathon build up

Post by dkggpeters » Sun Aug 10, 2014 1:04 pm

Dillyh,

Good for you for being smart.

I know a couple of runners in Texas whom are not adjusting for the heat and humidity as well.  I tried to tell them to adjust paces and/or hit the treadmill to no avail.  They are struggling and unfortunately I know how the story will end up playing out.

Heat and humidity takes a huge toll on the body and you have to be very smart about training in it.  That is why I enjoy training over the winter vs summer.  You do have to put your ego aside and run a lot slower sometimes.

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Re: Tinman marathon build up

Post by Tinman » Sun Aug 10, 2014 2:03 pm

If they buy Building Your Running Body, they will see my Heat Index Chart in their, and that can help them adjust the pace to their current weather conditions!
Tinman
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Inquire via email:
runfastcoach@gmail.com

dilluh
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Re: Tinman marathon build up

Post by dilluh » Sun Aug 10, 2014 2:12 pm

I think one of the hardest parts for me when I moved here ~5 years ago was that I did not appreciate how long the summers are. Not only are you forced to spend a month acclimating to the heat/humidity and slow your workouts - you also have to realize that this heat starts in May and goes until late September (early October sometimes). That is a long time to have to put up with nasty weather. The first two summers I went pretty strong until I got to early August - then it would all kind of fall apart, mileage dropped, I'd skip some runs and try to just hold at low mileage until the weather broke. The past three summers I've been a lot smarter about what kind of workouts I do, when I go for runs and how much mileage I take on so that I'm ready to get back into it when the weather breaks. This is the first time I've attempted to train for a big fall race through the Texas summer. So far so good by being very cautious and getting out in the "coolest" part of the day before the sun gets too high in the sky. Despite things going very well, I can already say that this will be the last time I attempt a fall marathon training cycle through a central Texas summer.

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Re: Tinman marathon build up

Post by Captainblood » Sun Aug 10, 2014 3:33 pm

Summers can be horrible.  I trained in the Florida summers as a high schooler.  Of course I didn't hydrate enough and would go out at 4 pm.  Every run was a death march.  I would come home and feel wiped out.

However much hydration you think you need during a run...you are not hydrating enough. 

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Re: Tinman marathon build up

Post by monica » Tue Aug 12, 2014 2:37 pm

[quote="Captainblood"]
Summers can be horrible.  I trained in the Florida summers as a high schooler.  Of course I didn't hydrate enough and would go out at 4 pm.  Every run was a death march.  I would come home and feel wiped out.

However much hydration you think you need during a run...you are not hydrating enough.
[/quote]

I don't know about others but when temps are bad enough* I find I just need to keep splashing water over my body (certain parts especially, e.g. back of neck, chest, elbow). That has a good cooling effect and I also sweat much less. I find I don't need to drink that much if doing this. If I were to just keep drinking without any splashing of water, I'd overheat soon.

*: that for me is over 75F if very sunny, otherwise if not sunny, and if I'm acclimated already then 90F is about my limit beyond which I need water.
Last edited by monica on Tue Aug 12, 2014 2:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Tinman marathon build up

Post by Texjd » Tue Aug 12, 2014 8:03 pm

Earlier in this thread I mentioned a runner I know who's been doing 20+ milers at moderate pace and then going out the next day for a glycogen depletion run which typically ends with him walking portions of it. Well, today he really bonked out and is suffering a bit of heat exhaustion with mild nausea, cold sweats and major fatigue. On top of that he reported that an old hamstring injury has started to nag him again. "Muscling through" workouts is one thing but to do it in this kind of climate is asking for trouble. Luckily I've been living here long enough to know what my limits are and how to pace myself. Yesterday's long run for me included some MP miles at the end but since it was so damned hot out I avoided monitoring the pace and just went by feel seeing as it was 83 degree heat index (serious humidity) at the start of my run (6:30 AM) and only climbed from there. Even with slowing down it was still challenging but I'm perfectly fine today. Tinman's advice to train to your fitness and surroundings ON THAT DAY are very important to heed  - especially when you combine hot weather with big workouts.

I will have to agree with Dilluh, I'm outside the Austin area and it is downright horrid running conditions if you don't get out the door by 6-6:30. Typically, the weekend LR starts at 74-78* and the humidity has been running 90-100%. I spent 12 years in FL and there are differences between the two weather wise, but after 2hrs plus, it all feels the same. As for just splashing some water on the body and not hydrating during a run (can't remember who posted), that just won't work down here during the summer. I drink 6-7 bottles of water daily and drink one prior to my LR, one during and one immediately after the run. Even staying as fully hydrated as possible, it's not rare to drop 3-5 lbs during these LR's.

I, too, recently picked up Tinman to help me see if there's any magic left in this old machine. For 30 months, 20 years ago, I was much like the example Dkggpeters described and left my best races on the roads during "training" runs. I looked good running behind those 2:3x marathoners I trained with only to be embarrassed come race day. Like Dilluh, I have found the days following the tougher workouts to be recovering quite well to this point of my schedule. Thanks to Dkggpeters, BoilerTom, CaptainBlood(I think) and Dilluh as watching your progress over time under Tinman has added some motivation.

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Re: Tinman marathon build up

Post by dkggpeters » Wed Aug 13, 2014 9:27 am

[quote="monica"]
I don't know about others but when temps are bad enough* I find I just need to keep splashing water over my body (certain parts especially, e.g. back of neck, chest, elbow). That has a good cooling effect and I also sweat much less. I find I don't need to drink that much if doing this. If I were to just keep drinking without any splashing of water, I'd overheat soon.

[/quote]

This doesn't work in really humid environments as the water will not evaporate.  Besides, you are already really wet from the sweat that is not evaporating.  Splashing water on you will only decrease the surface temp and not your core temp which is what will drive you to slow down.  You need plenty of fluids as you are loosing fluids at a very fast rate due to non-evaporation.

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Re: Tinman marathon build up

Post by dilluh » Wed Aug 13, 2014 11:17 am

[quote="dkggpeters"]
[quote="monica"]
I don't know about others but when temps are bad enough* I find I just need to keep splashing water over my body (certain parts especially, e.g. back of neck, chest, elbow). That has a good cooling effect and I also sweat much less. I find I don't need to drink that much if doing this. If I were to just keep drinking without any splashing of water, I'd overheat soon.

[/quote]

This doesn't work in really humid environments as the water will not evaporate.  Besides, you are already really wet from the sweat that is not evaporating.  Splashing water on you will only decrease the surface temp and not your core temp which is what will drive you to slow down.  You need plenty of fluids as you are loosing fluids at a very fast rate due to non-evaporation.
[/quote]

Agreed. After ~30 minutes, on any run right now, I basically look like I just stepped out of a swimming pool - there is no evaporative cooling happening and it's doubly worse when there's no air movement as has been the case recently. I always find it funny when running apparel companies tout how well their fabrics wick moisture. Hahaha! That doesn't really matter when you are fabrics are completely soaked within 20 minutes. The only way to go right now is short split shorts, thin socks, light shoes, a watch and nothing else.

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Re: Tinman marathon build up

Post by dkggpeters » Wed Aug 13, 2014 12:43 pm

[quote="dilluh"]
[quote="dkggpeters"]
[quote="monica"]
I don't know about others but when temps are bad enough* I find I just need to keep splashing water over my body (certain parts especially, e.g. back of neck, chest, elbow). That has a good cooling effect and I also sweat much less. I find I don't need to drink that much if doing this. If I were to just keep drinking without any splashing of water, I'd overheat soon.

[/quote]

This doesn't work in really humid environments as the water will not evaporate.  Besides, you are already really wet from the sweat that is not evaporating.  Splashing water on you will only decrease the surface temp and not your core temp which is what will drive you to slow down.  You need plenty of fluids as you are loosing fluids at a very fast rate due to non-evaporation.
[/quote]

The running clothing is wicking the moisture and the problem is that it doesn't go anywhere due to no evaporation so it just gets really wet and heavy.

In hot and humid conditions then a really nice wind is actually welcomed.

Agreed. After ~30 minutes, on any run right now, I basically look like I just stepped out of a swimming pool - there is no evaporative cooling happening and it's doubly worse when there's no air movement as has been the case recently. I always find it funny when running apparel companies tout how well their fabrics wick moisture. Hahaha! That doesn't really matter when you are fabrics are completely soaked within 20 minutes. The only way to go right now is short split shorts, thin socks, light shoes, a watch and nothing else.
[/quote]

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