It really works!!

Featuring TheRunZone?s resident coach Tinman. All participants are welcome to post and reply to topics in this section whether you?re looking for advice, or sharing your own coaching experience.

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dilluh
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Re: It really works!!

Post by dilluh » Sat Aug 30, 2014 7:22 am

[quote="Gabe1"]
The tricky thing is that some people in that group actually got pretty good, training like this. I guess if you have the right genes you can handle super hero workouts. But for others, like me, its a complete disaster. But you look at these guys thinking: if they can do it, I should be able too!
[/quote]

Yes, but for how long did they get 'pretty good'? That kind of workout is simply not sustainable if consistency is a key component of your training.

[quote="Gabe1"]
I enjoyed myself with looking back in my training calender, and here are a couple of workouts that we did with the running group:
Or this one:
10 km @ treshold pace.
[/quote]

To me, this is the least insane of the three but it would largely depend on how good your LT was going into it. If your LT is 5 min/mi pace then that workout would be around 50% of max length of LT you could run (if assuming that LT is ~1 hour race pace) - hard but not crazy if built up to. If your LT is 6 min/mi then that workout is 60% of max length of LT you could handle and that's starting to get to be a lot of volume at that effort. If your LT is even slower, you can do the math and see that 10k at LT is edging nearer and nearer to all out race effort for that pace. Not good.

Captainblood
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Re: It really works!!

Post by Captainblood » Sat Aug 30, 2014 7:58 am

Some guys get good doing anything.  How good would they be if they trained properly?

Mickey Mantle's breakfast of champions was "a big glass filled with a shot or more of brandy, some Kahlua and cream" and he hit 536 home runs and was a 20 time All Star.  Imagine what he could have done if he kept his drinking in check.

Killer workouts will lead to great returns for a short time.  However, for a large majority of runners they are unsustainable and lead to injury.  I was trained like a VO2 max machine in high school and my track and road times plateaued as a second year runner.

Gabe1
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Re: It really works!!

Post by Gabe1 » Sat Aug 30, 2014 8:35 am

Dilluh, I really don't know how long they improved, I only stayed with them for maybe half a year. But as a fairly new, inexperienced runner you watch guys that run under 36 min 10 k and thinking they are pretty fast, and you think that whatever they are doing, you should be doing it too. Some of these guys are thriathletes, so maybe they are able to handle crazy workouts like that a bit better, because so much of their other aerobic work are done on the bike and in the water?

Regarding the 10k threshold workout, I agree it could be a reasonable workout for really fast runners. But thing is, nobody ran it as a controlled treshold workout. Instead everybody was racing each other. A lot of people did not even finish these workouts at all.

shug
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Re: It really works!!

Post by shug » Sat Aug 30, 2014 9:46 am

[quote="Captainblood"]
Killer workouts will lead to great returns for a short time.  However, for a large majority of runners they are unsustainable and lead to injury.  I was trained like a VO2 max machine in high school and my track and road times plateaued as a second year runner.
[/quote]

This is exactly how I was trained in HS back in the mid-90s. I was working so hard and determined to become a good runner, yet I did not improve. Generally, I got worse as the season progressed.

During my senior year of track, I essentially quit trying very hard (due to frustration) and took it easy during EZ runs and workouts. Surprise, surprise, I improved my mile time by 20 seconds.
Last edited by shug on Sat Aug 30, 2014 9:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

Texjd
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Re: It really works!!

Post by Texjd » Sat Aug 30, 2014 7:33 pm

Personally, I think this is one reason why I run alone and stay away from "competitive" training. I didn't consider myself very fast, mid 35/10k, in comparison to those which I trained with and, like your prior running experience, I thought training faster would lead to big results. While the training did lead to faster times, it wasn't close to what I was capable of running. More importantly, it led to burnout.

monica
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Re: It really works!!

Post by monica » Sun Aug 31, 2014 12:00 am

[quote="Gabe1"]
Yes its nuts, but that is what happens all the time when ambitious adults get together to run quality and think that its wise to race every workout. Some of the people in that group were even running faster than 5k-pace, breathing so hard you would think their lungs would burst.

The rest was usually 1 min standing rest, but in reality people were lying on the ground gasping for air and taking longer and longer recovery every interval.

The mentality in that group was that if you blow up during training you are one hell of runner, a really tough guy!

The tricky thing is that some people in that group actually got pretty good, training like this. I guess if you have the right genes you can handle super hero workouts. But for others, like me, its a complete disaster. But you look at these guys thinking: if they can do it, I should be able too!
[/quote]

Lol I ran a few times with a group this spring and it was pretty crazy too. super hero workout crap, I cut back on it pretty fast. though it wasn't as crazy as your stuff lol. just "normal" stuff but with volume a bit too high like 8x100m(+full rest) + 20x300m(+100m jog rest) + 4x100m(+100m jog rest) (this was an actual workout with the group where I skipped part of it). and that group has 3 fast paced workouts a week + a pretty long long run. I guess still pretty crazy  ::)

love running with the group though so it was a crappy dilemma for me about what to do :/ ...I figured I could just keep skipping part of the workouts and still run with them once in every 1-2 weeks. a solution that worked.


[quote="Gabe1"]
I enjoyed myself with looking back in my training calender, and here are a couple of workouts that we did with the running group:
(...)
What do you guys think of those workouts? Maybe they could be something for Tinman's runners?  :P[/quote]

the hardest I've ever done is, 5km at threshold or a bit faster actually, 3x2000 at 10K pace (2min standing rest), 6km at 5sec slower than threshold pace (speeding up by the end). and then those are my hardest workouts, I don't do this sort of stuff every week. oh and in "training races" I'd also do 5-7km at around 10K pace, infrequently
Last edited by monica on Sun Aug 31, 2014 12:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

Schebo
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Re: It really works!!

Post by Schebo » Sun Aug 31, 2014 8:57 am

[quote="Captainblood"]
7 x 1000 at 5k pace is a bit nuts.  What was the recovery on that?

I might do 800s at that pace for 3 miles with close to equal time recovery.  But I definitely feel it in my legs for a couple of days.
[/quote]
5x1000 at 3k pace with 2-3 minutes rest is a pretty standard workout for an elite during track season.

Tinman
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Re: It really works!!

Post by Tinman » Sun Aug 31, 2014 11:36 am

True. elite runners execute workouts such as 5 x 1k @ 3k pace with modest recoveries during their primary race season, but the average runner cannot do such a workout and continue to improve week after week. The capacity to recover from such a workout is dependent upon a very high level of aerobic fitness...a level which no average runner could ever attain.  Furthermore, most elites who do such a workout are NOT racing very often. When racing regularly, they will not be so dumb as to run such a workout more than a couple of time, or else they will find themselves unable to hold form for the whole racing season.
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cav1979
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Re: It really works!!

Post by cav1979 » Sun Aug 31, 2014 12:24 pm

I did a similar workout in college about 10 years ago. It was 5 x 1K with 400 very slow jog to recover (probably 2:30 minutes). I averaged 2:45 and ran the workout solo. I remember it being one of the hardest workouts of the season. At the time I was running 70-80 miles a week. I was also racing every other weekend 1500 or steeple or 5k. I wouldn't say that I felt beat up from the workout the next day, but looking back I think this workout was counterproductive. I ran crappy my last race of the season and think it was partly due to a few workouts being way too intense.

Schebo
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Re: It really works!!

Post by Schebo » Sun Aug 31, 2014 2:06 pm

[quote="Tinman"]
  Furthermore, most elites who do such a workout are NOT racing very often.
[/quote]
Of course they don´t. Elite running is all about achieving supreme performances, not racing as often as possible.

Tinman
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Re: It really works!!

Post by Tinman » Sun Aug 31, 2014 11:35 pm

In a championship year, like the Olympic Games or World Championships, some of the elite runners focus on peaking. However, many elites are chasing money, such as the Diamond League series, and they aren't really peaking. Take a look at the top Diamond League competitors this year, for example, and it's clear that many ran near their best races in Late May or early June, running no faster than they did in August. I see no peaking. Rupp, Simpson, and the list goes on and on. I was there in Eugene, Oregon three months ago when six men ran under 3:50 in the mile. Rupp ran his best race of the year a - 10,000 American record. I saw Amos, Souleiman, and others run about as fast then as they did all summer. My point is they were not peaking - they ran several top flight races over a period of three months. I am certain that they rarely ran "hard" workouts this summer. In fact, I'll suggest that probably their hardest workouts were in the springtime, just prior to the summer racing season. Given that they held steady on the performance level, not really peaking, I'd say they ran mostly maintenance track sessions this summer, saving their best efforts for the many big races on the circuit.

http://diamondleague.com/Event-Calendar/

Just think, 13th place in the Bowerman mile in Eugene, Oregon, three months ago, was 3:53.62 - a guy from Norway I never heard of!
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Gabe1
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Re: It really works!!

Post by Gabe1 » Mon Sep 01, 2014 2:29 am

Coach, Henrik Ingebrigtsen is ranked nr 1 in Europe in 1500 m this year. He won the silver a few weeks ago in the European Championships just after the great Mekhissi-Benabbad. He was also 5:th in London Olympics 2012 in the 1500 with a 3:35.

Tinman
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Re: It really works!!

Post by Tinman » Mon Sep 01, 2014 11:48 am

I apologize, I just never heard of Ingebrigtsen before this year. Clearly, he is a fast runner! I may contact my friend, Knut Kvalheim, and ask him about Ingebrigtsen.
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Gabe1
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Re: It really works!!

Post by Gabe1 » Mon Sep 01, 2014 1:47 pm

No need to apologize coach, I just wanted to provide you with some info about Henrik. We don't produce that many good runners up here in the north these days, so Henrik is really somebody that excites. A great talent!

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