Maffetone Training

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qrkid
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Re: Maffetone Training

Post by qrkid » Mon Sep 08, 2014 7:08 am

[quote="shug"]
[quote="monica"]
As for 1:59 lol I would ask Radcliffe how she trained for her marathon WRs :)
[/quote]

To play devils advocate, take a look at how Geoffrey Mutai trained. If what has been reported is true, he doesn't do any training faster than his marathon pace. Plus, he claimed to take one day off per week.
[/quote]

Not really true. For his marathon prep, yes it is true. Canova (does not coach G. Mutai but has advised him alot) will tell you that Mutai pretty much uses the same system that Canova's guys use. During the 8wks prior to a race his focus is MP and pretty much everything is done at MP and up to 105% of MP. I will bet money that he does quite a bit of work at faster than MP at pther times during the year. The entire body of work needs to be looked at before we say that he only runs marathon pace because it is all prep for his marathon specifc phase. You don't get to run 58 mid half marathons and 27 mid 10k's off MP work alone

shug
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Re: Maffetone Training

Post by shug » Mon Sep 08, 2014 8:25 am

[quote="qrkid"]
[quote="shug"]
[quote="monica"]
As for 1:59 lol I would ask Radcliffe how she trained for her marathon WRs :)
[/quote]

To play devils advocate, take a look at how Geoffrey Mutai trained. If what has been reported is true, he doesn't do any training faster than his marathon pace. Plus, he claimed to take one day off per week.
[/quote]

Not really true. For his marathon prep, yes it is true. Canova (does not coach G. Mutai but has advised him alot) will tell you that Mutai pretty much uses the same system that Canova's guys use. During the 8wks prior to a race his focus is MP and pretty much everything is done at MP and up to 105% of MP. I will bet money that he does quite a bit of work at faster than MP at pther times during the year. The entire body of work needs to be looked at before we say that he only runs marathon pace because it is all prep for his marathon specifc phase. You don't get to run 58 mid half marathons and 27 mid 10k's off MP work alone
[/quote]

I completely agree with your logic. If what you're saying is true, Mutai was clearly fabricating his training as reported in the Boston Globe.

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Re: Maffetone Training

Post by dilluh » Mon Sep 08, 2014 12:08 pm

[quote="Gabe1"]
Maffetone really believes that someone will run 1:59 in a marathon very soon. I think that says pretty much about him. That's equal to around 25:20 10k. And today there isn't anyone who run under 26:30.
[/quote]

I think we should be looking more at equivalent 5k times if we want to talk about lowering the marathon WR. Why? Because the 10k is so rarely run under circumstances that would lead to a very fast race. Most 10ks now are qualifiers for WC or OG or the WC or OG themselves. Those races tend to be significantly more tactical and they are never set up for a WR attempt. There are maybe 1 or 2 chances per year for an elite 10k race with pacers (how good those pacers are and how long they last is another thing) that could possibly go after a 10k WR. That's just not a lot of opportunity and I think it's part of the reason why the 10k record seems so far out of reach. This is a bit off topic but I'd actually like to see XC in the winter olympics rather than the 10k in the summer olympics.

There's an opposite side to this though. Just because someone could run a ridiculous WR at 5k or 10k does not automatically mean they are going to be a world class marathoner. But I do think the inverse is true: in order to be a world class marathoner who goes after WRs, you have to have the capacity to be relatively close to WR times for 5k and 10k. I say 'capacity' because so many E. Africans are just skipping track all together to hit the roads and thus we don't know exactly how good they could be on the track.

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Re: Maffetone Training

Post by Gabe1 » Mon Sep 08, 2014 1:00 pm

And I think that the reason that the marathon times have developed so much in recent years is because they were TOO SLOW before, compared to equivalent performances on shorter distances.

For example: When Haile ran 26:22 in 1998, the marathon record was 2:07:12. Which is way too slow in comparison to 26:22.

So now, with new training ideas for the marathon, we have arrived to were the marathon world record actually equals the 10 k record. 26:17 is equal to 2:03 low.

But to shave off another 3 minutes is a huge, huge step. And if there was a talent out there that had the capacity to challenge the world record in 10.000 and 5000, I am sure this person would easily beat Mo Farah in the championship races. But there is no such runners around today. Or maybe we are seeing an effect of better doping controls now? Who knows.
Last edited by Gabe1 on Mon Sep 08, 2014 1:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Maffetone Training

Post by dilluh » Mon Sep 08, 2014 2:39 pm

I think there’s just a lot of interest in going for broke on the roads (specifically the marathon) simply due to the money.

As for drugs - who knows… I always suspect that really good dopers with the means to do so are one or two steps ahead of the testers at all times. That, and the ambiguity of what is and isn’t legal today versus tomorrow - someone is bound to ride a good portion of their career in that gray zone.

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Re: Maffetone Training

Post by ap4305 » Mon Sep 08, 2014 5:39 pm

Personally, I ran the worst in my life when following this type of training.  Someone used the word deflated earlier...that's a perfect description.

When it "works," its typically when someone has been overcooked and responds well in the short term to some intensity deloading and give the body a chance to absorb the previous overload.  So the "credit" should really go to simply getting a break, rather the some magical physiological formula (think confirmation bias).  I've never seen the training work long term when practiced by the book. 
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Re: Maffetone Training

Post by Tinman » Mon Sep 08, 2014 6:08 pm

Based on my formulas, the world marathon best time (2:03:23) is equal to a 26:52 for 10,000m. Given that I think about 26:30 is the fastest any many can run legally at present, I think the marathon best time could legally reach 2:01:42.  Yeah, I think the record will approach 2 hours in the future, but that will be with illegal (of future illegal) methods. I suspect all it will really take is increasing the total amount of fluid (water) that could be stored in the body of the runner, which will artificially elevate sustainable V.O2 max. Thus, a runner who is capable of 2:02:23 may break 2 hours, just barely, due to a 2% advantage. Specifically, the plasma volume of a runner can be expanded, which is exactly what Lance Armstrong and a boat load of other elite cyclists (and xc skiers) did in the 1990s through the mid-2000s to increase endurance.
Last edited by Tinman on Thu Sep 11, 2014 12:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Maffetone Training

Post by shug » Mon Sep 08, 2014 8:27 pm

[quote="ap4305"]
When it "works," its typically when someone has been overcooked and responds well in the short term to some intensity deloading and give the body a chance to absorb the previous overload.  So the "credit" should really go to simply getting a break, rather the some magical physiological formula (think confirmation bias).  I've never seen the training work long term when practiced by the book.
[/quote]

I think you're spot-on!

I have a suspicion that Maffetone trains/trained his athletes slightly different than the literal interpretations of his writings. While I don't think he had his athletes out there hammering, I presume he integrated judicious amounts of quality work to keep the training balanced.

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Re: Maffetone Training

Post by shug » Mon Sep 08, 2014 8:38 pm

[quote="Tinman"]
Based on my formulas, the world marathon best time (2:03:23) is equal to a 26:52 for 10,000m. Given that I think about 26:30 is the fastest any many can run legally at present, I think the marathon best time could legally reach 2:01:42.  Yeah, I think the record will approach 2 hours in the future, but that will be with illegal (of future illegal) methods. I suspect all it will really take is increasing the total amount of fluid (water) that could be stored in the body of the runner, which will artificially elevate sustainable V.O2 max. Thus, a runner who is capable of 2:02:23 may break 2 hours, just barely, due to a 2% advantage.
[/quote]

This is extremely interesting, Tinman!

Your comment about fluid intake is not something I've considered before or read about. In light of Dr. Tim Noakes' writing of Watterlogged and the added weight (at close to a 2 hour marathon, I presume weight matters immensely), this surprised me.

Is there anything a rank-and-file can learn/apply from this concept?   

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Re: Maffetone Training

Post by Gabe1 » Tue Sep 09, 2014 2:29 am

[quote="Tinman"]
Based on my formulas, the world marathon best time (2:03:23) is equal to a 26:52 for 10,000m. Given that I think about 26:30 is the fastest any many can run legally at present, I think the marathon best time could legally reach 2:01:42.  Yeah, I think the record will approach 2 hours in the future, but that will be with illegal (of future illegal) methods. I suspect all it will really take is increasing the total amount of fluid (water) that could be stored in the body of the runner, which will artificially elevate sustainable V.O2 max. Thus, a runner who is capable of 2:02:23 may break 2 hours, just barely, due to a 2% advantage.
[/quote]

Ok, I used McMillan's calculator. The Tinman Calculator differs quite a lot.

But it was interesting to see in for example London 2013, when they had assembled almost every one of the best marathon runners of all time with the aim to break the world record (both Mutais, Kipsang, Abshero, Lilesa and Mo Farah was there to run the first half) and all of them blew up, and the first half was only run in 61:34. Which was of course very fast, but it was also way too fast for all these guys. So it really felt like 2 hours is a long way ahead.. You need to run 14:13 5 k splits all the way, think about that for a second.. ::)

The world record in 5000 and 10000 improved a lot up to 2005, but has not moved at all since then. And I think it will be about the same with the marathon now. Perhaps someone will run under 2:03 in near future, but after that I think it will take a long time before we see anything near sub 2.

But of course, who knows what some future drugs might do?

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Re: Maffetone Training

Post by Tinman » Tue Sep 09, 2014 1:33 pm

I am not a fan of McMillan' calculator. It's better than it used to be, but it's still off-target.
Last edited by Tinman on Tue Sep 09, 2014 2:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Maffetone Training

Post by dilluh » Tue Sep 09, 2014 4:16 pm

Speaking of interesting training theories…

http://www.runnersworld.com/masters-pro ... RW_TBD_AR1

This guy is basically running a 6-8 mile Tinman tempo (based on his 17:17 5k) every day of the week. I’ve heard the theory that when you get older you can focus more of your efforts at faster running but this seems a bit out there. Not saying that what he’s doing is wrong but I wonder what he could do on a more diverse/balanced approach. I guess some people just hate the idea of not “working hard” on all of their runs. =]

Perhaps this is similar to what was referenced in terms of Maffetone’s stuff where you have runners with track backgrounds that get burned out and then do well off of more moderate stuff because they’ve been neglecting it?

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Re: Maffetone Training

Post by dkggpeters » Tue Sep 09, 2014 4:45 pm

McMillan gives me times for distances shorter than the marathon that I can't touch.  It is overly aggressive for me.

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Re: Maffetone Training

Post by Gabe1 » Tue Sep 09, 2014 5:04 pm

[quote="dkggpeters"]
McMillan gives me times for distances shorter than the marathon that I can't touch.  It is overly aggressive for me.
[/quote]

But you are a true slow twitch guy, right?  If I look at Tinmans calculator it says I could run a sub 3 marathon already based off my 10k time, but that feels quite optimistic for me if I am honest.
Last edited by Gabe1 on Tue Sep 09, 2014 5:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Maffetone Training

Post by BoilerTom90 » Tue Sep 09, 2014 6:14 pm

[quote="Gabe1"]
[quote="dkggpeters"]
McMillan gives me times for distances shorter than the marathon that I can't touch.  It is overly aggressive for me.
[/quote]

But you are a true slow twitch guy, right?  If I look at Tinmans calculator it says I could run a sub 3 marathon already based off my 10k time, but that feels quite optimistic for me if I am honest.
[/quote]

I thought the same thing until I was trained by Tinman! :-)

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