Base Training Feedback

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BearWhite
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Base Training Feedback

Post by BearWhite » Thu Oct 09, 2014 8:32 am

Hi All,

I recently ran my target race for the 2nd half of the year (a hilly HM in 1:20:40) and am looking for feedback on my proposed base phase which will take me up to the New Year.

Does the following look sensible, or am I missing some stuff?

Monday:      50mins @ easy pace
Tuesday:      20mins WU, 6m Tempo @ Tinman Tempo pace, 20 min CD
Wednesday:  50mins @ easy pace
Thursday:    50mins @ easy pace
Friday:        50mins @ easy pace with 5 lots of strides
Saturday:    Off
Sunday:      90mins @ easy pace


Thanks

dkggpeters
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Re: Base Training Feedback

Post by dkggpeters » Thu Oct 09, 2014 11:56 am

I would add a lot more variety in your schedule and not do a tempo every week.  You can do some CV Intervals, MP, or even an unstructured fartlek.

You really need to provide more details as to when is your next planned race next year and what distance, what kind of mileage you normally do during racing season, and what type of workouts did you do.

BearWhite
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Re: Base Training Feedback

Post by BearWhite » Thu Oct 09, 2014 2:02 pm

Thanks for the reply, and fair point regarding the lack of details. I`ll try to provide more background / details.

I started running consistently about 18 months ago, just running home from work and a local 5k race every week. This amounted to probably 25 - 30 miles per week. None of this was structured but resulted in my 5k time going down from 20:25 to 18:02 and my HM from 1:31 to 1:24:30

This year I joined a club and fell into the over training trap straight away. A typical week looked like this:

M: Off
T: 12m inc 6m tempo as fast I could go (6:05 ish generally and in reality this was a race between guys at my club)
W: Off
Th: 10m inc Intervals, (1 * 5 miles or 8 * 800s generally - again ran as fast as we could go)
F: Off
Sat: 10m inc 5k race flat out
Sun: 12m (7:00 - 7:30 pace)

Amazingly I had a couple of decent results to start with but then started feeling really run down and ended up in casualty after collapsing, which I think was down to the training I was doing. Before the collapse I had several disappointing races (10k at 39mins, 5k at 18:15) and felt like I was going backwards.

Anyway, since April I`ve taken what I think was a more sensible approach to training which has gone better (1:20:40 HM & 37:04 10k, 17:30 5k - all on hilly courses). This training has looked as follows:

M: Off
T: 12m inc 6m Tempo at 6:30ish
W; 5m easy (somewhere between 7:40 and 8:00 minute mile pace)
T: 8m inc intervals (generally something like 6 * 1000, 5 * 1200, or 8 * 800, all with 400m jog rest and ran at Daniels I pace)
F: Off
S: 8m easy - as per pace above
S: 12m easy - as per pace above

I also swapped some hill reps in periodically in place of the intervals, as well as some timed sessions on the road (5 * 5mins at 5k pace followed by 3 mins jog recovery).

In September I ran 2 HMs and a 10m which were followed by a week off as I was feeling pretty worn out. Since then I`ve just been running a few easy miles every day to get back into things. That`s been for about a week now.

My big target is the London Marathon (end of April 2015), with a HM lined up 5 weeks before hand, and a 10k a month before the HM. I think that my aerobic base may be lacking so my plan was to do some solid base training up until the end of this year, before starting more Marathon specific training in the new year. Apparently my HM time translates to just below a 2:50 Marathon so that would be the dream goal. However, I know the marathon is a step up from other races so that may be a bit ambitious.

BoilerTom90
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Re: Base Training Feedback

Post by BoilerTom90 » Thu Oct 09, 2014 4:56 pm

Based on your times dropping on rather unstructured and adhoc training (no offense intended), you appear to have some running ability. To go from 1:31 to 1:20 is a significant drop. If you really want to see what you're capable of, I suggest hiring Tinman as your coach starting now until your next race.  You're very unlikely to be over-trained and you will optimize your ability for that training cycle.

If you can't afford hiring him as your coach, I think you could peruse these forums for lots of information and training examples. Also, be sure to read the "marathon training" paper that's availalbe on the "Tinman's Articles" link.  The two big workouts approach is very good.

good luck and report back!!

dilluh
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Re: Base Training Feedback

Post by dilluh » Thu Oct 09, 2014 5:58 pm

[quote="BearWhite"]
My big target is the London Marathon (end of April 2015), with a HM lined up 5 weeks before hand, and a 10k a month before the HM. I think that my aerobic base may be lacking so my plan was to do some solid base training up until the end of this year, before starting more Marathon specific training in the new year. Apparently my HM time translates to just below a 2:50 Marathon so that would be the dream goal. However, I know the marathon is a step up from other races so that may be a bit ambitious.
[/quote]

April 2015 is a long way off from now. As BoilerTom suggested, hiring Tinman would be the smartest way to optimize your marathon result but yes, you can learn a lot from these forums as well. I'd suggest that you focus on 10k-type training for now while also cautiously increasing weekly mileage/time. This will offer nice transition into the type of work you will need in order to perform best in the marathon. Don't get tricked into thinking that you need 6 straight months of marathon-specific training. Having that HM and 10k race preceding the marathon is a great idea, too.

Texjd
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Re: Base Training Feedback

Post by Texjd » Thu Oct 09, 2014 6:38 pm

I'd agree with BoilerTom and Dilluh in suggesting Tinman's help prior to your target race period. Even a month or two prior to your goal training period beginning.

Stay away from the overtraining trap which you mentioned happening in your startup phase. I was a casualty in my younger years of overtraining to the point of discontinuing running.  Like you, my race times were dropping and based off my 10k and HM, a sub 2:50 was predicted using the charts. Other than a 20m training run, I never came close. If I had the access to someone like Tinman to reign me in and create a solid plan, I'm confident I would have met or exceeded my goals.

dilluh
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Re: Base Training Feedback

Post by dilluh » Thu Oct 09, 2014 7:33 pm

I completely agree with Texjd with respect to overtraining. If you're relatively new to running, and especially if you have some talent (which appears to be the case in your instance), the PRs will drop precipitously at first almost no matter what type of training you do. Whatever you do, don't get into the mindset that harder and more is always better. I cringed a little bit when you said you ran a 6 mile "tempo" race. Those are the types of things that, if done with too much frequency or in too much volume, coupled with a weekly mileage you've never been at before, those things can put you in a hole.

There's a term that gets thrown around here a lot: keep the ball rolling. Whether or not you decide to work directly with Tinman as coach or schedule writer, I think that is the #1 mantra to keep in the back of your mind while building your fitness. This is at the micro-scale, i.e., in a single workout always end feeling like you could've done one or two more repeats and adjust pace based on what you feel is appropriate FOR THAT DAY. At the macro-scale, too: keep track of the time on your feet or mileage and gradually increase it - don't make huge leaps.

Consistent, progressive training week after week and month after month trump any single workout - every single time.

BearWhite
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Re: Base Training Feedback

Post by BearWhite » Fri Oct 10, 2014 5:12 am

Thanks for the replies and advice all, its much appreciated.

I was definitely guilty of over training and have learnt my lesson from it. My wife used to say I looked grey when I got back from a workout but I thought this was what I needed to do to get quicker - clearly this isn't the case! Sadly it seems to be what most people at my club are doing and most of them are making little progress.

I'm sure getting Tinman to coach me would yield the best results but unfortunately I'm not in a position to do that at the moment. I have had a read through lots of the articles posted on here and there seems to be lots of great information I can learn from so I will try and incorporate this in to what I do.

Dilluh - you mentioned focusing on 10k based training while increasing mileage, before transitioning in to Marathon specific training closer to the race. What`s the thinking behind this? Does 10k specific training give me the best general base fitness? Also, at what point roughly would you suggest focusing on Marathon specific training?

Finally, I found plenty of 10k workouts on here through this link (http://www.therunzone.com//viewtopic.ph ... 7#msg17617). Is a sensible starting point to schedule two of these a week (say Tuesday and Friday) with a long run on Sunday and easy mileage in between?

One other thing - what duration of long run would people suggest in 10k training? Is 75-90 mins in the ball park?


Thanks
Last edited by BearWhite on Fri Oct 10, 2014 5:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

dilluh
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Re: Base Training Feedback

Post by dilluh » Fri Oct 10, 2014 9:32 am

Read this.

http://www.championshipproductions.com/ ... rticle.pdf

Basically, 10k-paced training (CV) will train both LT and VO2max systems and this translates well for a large span of race distances (especially the 10k) while also being safe to do year-round if one wanted to. True VO2max training (longish reps at 3k-5k pace) can only be done for a period of time (as little as 2 weeks for some and as much as 8 weeks for others) before maximum effect and then decline in performance. On the other side of things, working only at tempo paces or MP paces would be ok, but you’re missing out on a good balance of training and optimal stimulation of stamina. You want to achieve a balanced spectrum of training stimuli (paces).

As for what to do, specifically, that’s really up to you and what you find works best. Figure out what mileage you can reasonably handle right now with 2 solid workouts plus an easy long run. Base those workouts on your CURRENT fitness. Not hoped for fitness. If that means you run a local 5k or go on the track to do a 3200m time trial, so be it. Figure out where you are right now and use Tinman’s pace calculator (http://www.runningprs.com/runnerscalculator.htm) to determine paces for workouts. A good starting point might be an early week “Tinman” tempo run, a mid-week CV (roughly 10k paced) workout on the track (use the above article as a guide for rep distance and total volume) including some strides or 3k-5k paced 200s at the end and then a weekend long run. Maybe start the long run as 90 minutes all easy. If you find you can handle this quite well along with the two workouts, begin extending the long run very gradually each week and maybe run the last 20 minutes of it at moderate or easy tempo pace. Again, this is only if it doesn’t compromise those 2 workouts. If it does, just run easy for the entire long run.

For some people, this type of training alone can make you very race fit for any race from 5k-HM. If in the meanwhile you want to race the 5k or the HM, you might want to tweak a few of those workouts for an optimal result and that is a bit of art, i.e., knowing what type of runner you are. This type of 10k training is a good stepping stone for marathon training as you’ll have well developed stamina, good overall volume and, if done right, should not lead to over-training.

When to start focusing on more marathon-specific training is also a bit of an art which depends on many factors. Again, I would consider hiring Tinman to at least write a schedule for you for this part. Even just 2 months of a schedule would be very useful and is incredibly inexpensive when broken down on a daily basis (just have one less coffee per week and one less pint at the bar and you've covered it). =]

dilluh
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Re: Base Training Feedback

Post by dilluh » Fri Oct 10, 2014 1:29 pm

I just watched a mini-documentary about Jake and Zane Robertson (New Zealanders who at 16 years old moved to Kenya to train full time). At one point they got out on the famed dirt track near Iten and did a session of 7x2000m w/ 2 min jog recovery at 10k pace with about 30 Kenyans of varying abilities. Lordy, talk about a huge session! Canadian marathoner Reid Coolsaet was in on the workout as well.

Disclaimer should read: Kids, don't try this at home. Hahaha!

Joggernaut
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Re: Base Training Feedback

Post by Joggernaut » Fri Oct 10, 2014 2:40 pm

[quote="dilluh"] There's a term that gets thrown around here a lot: keep the ball rolling. I think that is the #1 mantra to keep in the back of your mind while building your fitness. This is at the micro-scale, i.e., in a single workout always end feeling like you could've done one or two more repeats and adjust pace based on what you feel is appropriate FOR THAT DAY. At the macro-scale, too: keep track of the time on your feet or mileage and gradually increase it - don't make huge leaps. Consistent, progressive training week after week and month after month trump any single workout - every single time.[/quote]

^^^^
If you can understand this fully, you'll be golden. It's pertinent to ALL phases of training, but especially so during the base training. Don't steal from tomorrow's workout(s)! Even if it's a planned recovery day the next day, you shouldn't be hobbling or require that the day be taken off when it arrives. In this sense, a weekly training template is not always the wisest way to train (though the structure does make things mentally easier and helps to keep the ball rolling).

Ultimately, your training has to be somewhat response-driven to be truly effective, and the highest performing athletes are those who have a deep understanding and rapport with their body, no matter the circumstance. While it may be impractical for most runners to train in such a manner, due to time constraints and what we term "real life," it's nonetheless important to refrain from being enslaved to daily or weekly training goals or regimens. You're a snowflake slowly becoming a snowball with the end goal of becoming a full-fledged avalanche! No two snowflakes are identical, so you'll need to learn how YOU respond to each day's training and all else that may or may not affect it, as well as how it's going to affect you in the coming workouts.

BearWhite
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Re: Base Training Feedback

Post by BearWhite » Fri Oct 10, 2014 3:40 pm

Thanks for the replies all. Some very interesting and thought provoking stuff. It looks like I've been doing some of the correct stuff in the latter part of this year but absolutely nothing at CV pace. I`ll look to incorporate this going forwards as well as integrating some of the other ideas from this forum.

Thanks again for the input.

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