Progressive 4 x 1 Mile for 5K Preparation

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Josh1
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Progressive 4 x 1 Mile for 5K Preparation

Post by Josh1 » Thu Oct 30, 2014 1:22 pm

I originally wrote this in another older thread this morning but I'm going to pull it out now and give the subject its own thread

I have a question regarding a workout that I read about on this site some time ago.  It was 4 x 1 mile with a few minutes of recovery like this:

1st  @ 10-mile race pace
2nd @ CV pace
3rd @ 5K pace
4th @ 5K pace minus 15 sec

I was thinking of doing this workout tomorrow morning, 15 days out from my next 5k race and 13 days since the last time I ran at a pace faster than CV pace for a sustained period of time (this was my last 5k race where I ran 18:46 on 10/18).  Another option was going to be a 1km rep workout at CV pace and shifting into 5K pace at slightly shorter reps.  A final option would be 1km CV reps and some 600's at 3k effort.  Any running faster than CV pace would be at full recovery. 

Does anyone have thoughts on this particular 4 x 1 mile workout?  I think my body can recover from just about any of these options in 2 weeks.
Last edited by Josh1 on Thu Oct 30, 2014 1:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

dilluh
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Re: Progressive 4 x 1 Mile for 5K Preparation

Post by dilluh » Thu Oct 30, 2014 1:30 pm

Maybe Tinman can calculate the difficulty of this workout relative to a more standard one but, to me, this seems pretty tough. A mile at faster than 5k pace seems like a tall order on the backend of that workout. I'd put this workout in the "very hard" category and thus would not likely do it under normal circumstances - but that's just because I know I don't respond well to significant dosages of faster than 5k running (even when training for 5k). Like you said though, it's two weeks out and if you can recover from anything... Perhaps there is a cost/benefit analysis to be done here.

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Re: Progressive 4 x 1 Mile for 5K Preparation

Post by FTIR » Thu Oct 30, 2014 3:59 pm

Sounds hard.

The point is not can you recover,
but will you fully benefit?

Please indicate actual anticipated times
and rest periods and type of rest. Jog, walk??

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Re: Progressive 4 x 1 Mile for 5K Preparation

Post by Josh1 » Thu Oct 30, 2014 4:03 pm

I ran 18:47 2 weeks ago on a flat course.  My planned recoveries would be 2 min after the first rep, 4 min after the second rep, and at least a 3/4 mile jog (say 8 min) after the 5k rep (before starting the fastest rep).  I am not sold on the workout so it isn't going to take much to convince me not to do it!
Last edited by Josh1 on Thu Oct 30, 2014 4:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Progressive 4 x 1 Mile for 5K Preparation

Post by dilluh » Thu Oct 30, 2014 4:57 pm

With that long of rest, I think the workout becomes less effective and as FTIR said, what are the benefits of such a workout? I think I remember seeing something similar posted a while back, although the workout is different. I believe the quoted below is from Tinman:

Recently a border-line elite Australian middle distance runner asked me a question about race-simulation workouts. He said he was waivering between racing the 1500m and the 5,000m. I suggested some various workout he might do to test his fitness and performance level. Because running time trials by yourself are hard to do, I suggested a favorite "hard" workout I've used and prescribed for runners over the years to test strengths and weaknesses. 

Here it is:

1600m at 5k race effort (jog 3-4 minutes recovery),
1200 at 3k race effort (jog 3-4 minutes recovery),
 800 at 1500m race effort (jog 3-4 minutes recovery),
 400 at 800m race effort.

You will quickly recognize weaknesses and strengths from the workout. Runners who lack aerobic efficiency will slow dramatically in this workout. People who lack anaerobic capacity will not be able to improve the speed at the end of the workout much, compared to earlier reps. 


I think this is still a tough workout and look at how much less volume it is compared to what you are proposing. I think your second option of a combo CV/5k workout sounds like a more reasonable option.

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Re: Progressive 4 x 1 Mile for 5K Preparation

Post by ap4305 » Thu Oct 30, 2014 11:58 pm

1)  Think "minimal effective dose."  While this workout might or might not yield some benefit, there are MANY less taxing options to help improve an 18:47/5k. 

2)  That said, it's ONE workout.  Always difficult to honestly evaluate any single workout without a fuller context of the training that has come before.  And no one can predict recovery from a single workout without a broader picture of the entire recovery plan (ie, previous training, sleep, nutrition, stress, etc). 
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Re: Progressive 4 x 1 Mile for 5K Preparation

Post by FTIR » Fri Oct 31, 2014 6:00 am

OK I understand the rests but how long will each 1600 take

1st  @ 10-mile race pace
2nd @ CV pace
3rd @ 5K pace
4th @ 5K pace minus 15 sec

7:00, 6:15????

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Re: Progressive 4 x 1 Mile for 5K Preparation

Post by Josh1 » Fri Oct 31, 2014 10:12 am

I did not do the workout this morning, but the times were going to be 6:30, 6:15, 6:00, 5:45.  I really wish that I could find the page where Tinman recomended this workout so that we could see the full context.  I appreciate all of the input!

Instead of the 4 x 1 mile workout, I ran 1km CV reps followed by 2 x 800m reps at 5K pace + 1 x 800m rep at 3k pace with full jog recoveries for the faster reps + 3 x 150 at 800m effort.  I felt great the whole way!

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Re: Progressive 4 x 1 Mile for 5K Preparation

Post by Tinman » Fri Oct 31, 2014 7:35 pm

That workout is fine if you have not been racing much AND if you respond to hard workouts. Furthermore, you are wise to run this workout at least 10 days before your goal race. It's not a bad workout, but you do need to account for how much stress you have included in your running training/racing of late, foremost, before doing the workout. It does you know good to run a hard workout like that if you are already tanking - really tired and not getting better. The hardest choice for competitive runners is to rest - to not run a hard workout - when they are not improving. More times than not, accumulated fatigue sets in for runners and they beat up their body as they try to push through a barrier. But, the barrier is not real for their body; it's fiction, made up in their head. Reducing stress, when fatigue has set in and a plateau has occurred, takes courage, but it does pay off.

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Re: Progressive 4 x 1 Mile for 5K Preparation

Post by Josh1 » Fri Nov 07, 2014 3:34 pm

Tinman - I really appreciated your advice!  I had been on the road for work and just had a chance to respond.  One follow-up question

I have used a 5 x 1km at CV (200m jog recoveries) + 2-3 x 800m at 5K pace (the third rep would either be at 5k pace, or 3k pace if feeling really good - sometimes that 3rd rep is a 600m rep at 3k pace) (400m jog recoveries on the race pace reps) + 3 x 150m at 1500 to 800m effort

This has been a long but very doable workout for me on weeks when I am not racing.  I want to know if there is an upward limit on time that would be recomended for a workout like this one?  I can warm-up for 20 min and cool down for 10 minutes and accomplish this workout in under 90 minutes.  I typically start this workout at 5:30am and can finish before 7am.  I usually feel pretty darn good the next day - never really tired.  I am asking the question not because of fatigue, but because 90 minutes during the week is demanding (but doable if I plan accordingly).

Thanks!
Last edited by Josh1 on Fri Nov 07, 2014 3:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Progressive 4 x 1 Mile for 5K Preparation

Post by dkggpeters » Fri Nov 07, 2014 4:34 pm

With a 20 minute warmup and 10 minute warm down that session shouldn't take much over an over and maybe 1:10 tops.

Josh1
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Re: Progressive 4 x 1 Mile for 5K Preparation

Post by Josh1 » Fri Nov 07, 2014 4:53 pm

I've done it several times and that is how long it takes

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Re: Progressive 4 x 1 Mile for 5K Preparation

Post by dkggpeters » Fri Nov 07, 2014 5:21 pm

[quote="Josh1"]
I've done it several times and that is how long it takes
[/quote]

How slow are you running your recoveries?

For me the workout would be:

Warmup            20.00
5 x 1k                17:30  (5 x 3:30)
Recoveries          6:00  (5 x 1:12)
3 x 800                7:15  (3 x 2:45)
Recoveries          6:45  (3 x 2:15)
3 x 150m            1:00  (3 x 20 sec)
Recoveries          2:00  (3 x 40 sec)
Warm Down      10:00
Total                1:10:30 

Also, since you do the session in the morning it is easy to add another 15 to 30 minutes by just starting earlier.  It is only once a week so getting up 30 minutes earlier is easy.
Last edited by dkggpeters on Fri Nov 07, 2014 5:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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