Alan Webb recommended workout...thoughts?

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runthe8
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Alan Webb recommended workout...thoughts?

Post by runthe8 » Wed Feb 11, 2015 1:50 pm

Here's the link: http://www.finalsurge.com/blog/article/ ... -2-11-2015

This is for those getting ready for a 5K. I kind of like it- it sounds like something Drew would really enjoy running. By the way, he ran 8:59 last weekend indoors for 3200!

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Re: Alan Webb recommended workout...thoughts?

Post by Tinman » Wed Feb 11, 2015 5:27 pm

After the moderate intensity 1200m run, the 30 second rest is a waste of time. Why not go right into the 400m rep at 3k speed? During the time of the 30 second rest, oxygen demand lowers and about 50% recovery occurs. So, the 400m that follows is not run with a high oxygen demand, at least not as high as it should be to induce changes in cardiac output of the heart. On the other hand, running 1600m continuously with the last 400m at 3k speed will keep oxygen demand high (no recovery) and so cardiac output is stimulated; thus, V.O2 max is boosted. The first 1200m of the rep boosted stamina of fast intermediate fibers.

As an aside, Allan Webb had the talent, the determination/drive, and opportunity to win Olympic medals. Too bad the people managing that talent didn't know how to peak him when it mattered most! Under a coach like Lydiard, Webb would have been a double gold medalist, just like Peter Snell, I believe.
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Re: Alan Webb recommended workout...thoughts?

Post by dilluh » Wed Feb 11, 2015 6:46 pm

Tinman, I completely agree regarding Alan Webb’s talent. I can’t think of many runners with his raw speed and span all the way from 800 (1:43) to 10,000m (27:34). No one has run faster since his 3:46 mile in 2007. Think about that… in almost 8 years no one has run faster than Alan Webb in the mile. Webb was a Ferrari! And unfortunately, also like a Ferrari, when not handled with care, was broken down a lot.

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Re: Alan Webb recommended workout...thoughts?

Post by ZachCC » Wed Feb 11, 2015 7:12 pm

I have no comment on the Alan Webb workout, but did want to say congrats to Drew and family. I was there to see Drew's race last week, great stuff!! 8:59, with no one pushing him. Congrats!

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Re: Alan Webb recommended workout...thoughts?

Post by runthe8 » Wed Feb 11, 2015 8:58 pm

Tom, I can see what you are saying. It would not be a very hard workout the way it is written, especially for an aerobically strong kid like Drew. Plus, it's not enough reps, I don't think. But how about for a different kind of athlete? Would there be any value in doing this kind of workout as written, with the 30 second rest, but with the last 400 run at under 1600 pace? OR maybe instead of a fast 400 at the end, a very fast 200? I am thinking of more for the 800/1600 athlete. You keep the stamina component that the 1200 provides, but then work on running fast at the end.

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Re: Alan Webb recommended workout...thoughts?

Post by Tinman » Wed Feb 11, 2015 9:34 pm

To be frank, I think it's a joke of a workout and not what someone with real knowledge about training athletes would assign.

Drew doesn't need to change course right now. We've talked about the training he needs and I stand by it still. He needs more CV, short speed like 60s that will aid his mechanics, his weakness now,, some drills, and plenty of hills and tempo running cycled into the mix. He's running under 9 minutes for 3200m on that in early February. All you need to do is keep the ball rolling. If he keeps it going, he should be running 8:50 without even pressing the pedal to the metal during the March-April time-frame, Some sharpening and he should be down near 8:40 at the end of outdoors as a junior, which is exceptional.

As I mentioned in a previous email to you, Drew is not a miler. He's very much like Craig Virgin (who didn't start running until his sophomore year in high school, just like Jim Ryun). Craig was a star endurance athlete, who ran a full 2 miles in 8:40 in the early 1970s, his third year of running, and he could clobber people in cross-country due to fantastic aerobic capacity and endurance. Craig was a star in college and beyond, winning two world cross country titles, setting the American record for 10,000m. I think Drew is the same as Craig.

Don't mess with the recipe for training Drew! It's working; Drew is getting fitter, faster, and stronger, as time passes. Ignore what other people are doing and focus on yourself is what I'd tell Drew. You have me to help you, as needed, and you have a training method that's proven very effective to use.

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Re: Alan Webb recommended workout...thoughts?

Post by runthe8 » Wed Feb 11, 2015 10:13 pm

Not to worry...today Drew got in about 10 miles including drills, 5 miles at tempo pace, and some good hill reps. Yesterday he did an hour (split into two runs due to some tiredness) with 6x 60 meter fast runs over wickets with full recovery :-) So I guess we are on the right track. I have no intention of changing the way Drew is training since it is working, but I do sometimes like to look at variations of the staple workouts, just to keep it interesting for him.

I know he's not a miler but he still wants to run a good mile, and I think he can. Is there any reason not to try? Won't it help him with the longer things? He would like to run low 4's this spring and I think it is do-able. He has not had a single opportunity to run a fresh, fast mile with great competition yet thus far in his career. We are thinking about doing it at Penn Relays instead of doing the 3000 this year, and then running the 3000 next year at Penn. What are your thoughts?

I still don't see how the Webb workout, the way I described it with the last 400 or 200 run at a faster pace is much different from running a CV effort followed by something shorter and faster. I know on occasion, you have recommended not putting the fast reps all together at the end of the workout, but instead running a CV rep, short jog recovery, faster short rep (200) , then back to the CV rep, etc. So I guess I don't see why this would be "joke of a workout", especially for a more middle distance oriented runner (NOT Drew). Maybe the 30 second standing rest would not be the best choice. How does a standing 30 second rest compare to a slow 200 jog that takes about 90 seconds? Just curious. I know before I started training your way, I hated jog recovery and much preferred a standing recovery. I know that's the middle distance runner in me, though.

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Re: Alan Webb recommended workout...thoughts?

Post by Tinman » Wed Feb 11, 2015 11:09 pm

I am too tired to reread prior posts now, so just know that I am not cutting down your workouts idea, just the one you cited, which was from the Webb duo. Good night!
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Re: Alan Webb recommended workout...thoughts?

Post by Schebo » Thu Feb 12, 2015 12:05 pm

Tinman wrote:I am too tired to reread prior posts now, so just know that I am not cutting down your workouts idea, just the one you cited, which was from the Webb duo. Good night!
Being caught contradicting yourself can be a pain...

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Re: Alan Webb recommended workout...thoughts?

Post by Tinman » Thu Feb 12, 2015 12:59 pm

Schebo -

To what you think is contradictory, I am unsure. Last night, I didn't reread the posts because I needed sleep. At that time, I simply recalled the general idea of prior posts, which was that Webb offered one workout recommendation and runth8 another. I evaluated the first workout previously and thought it wasn't efficient. I did not evaluate the alternative presented by runthe8. If time permits, tonight I'll review the alternative.

Regards,

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Re: Alan Webb recommended workout...thoughts?

Post by Tinman » Thu Feb 12, 2015 9:14 pm

Joan,

Sure, you can run the 1200 in the threshold to CV range with a short rest and then go right into a fast 400 or 200. I still say why take the 30 second rest when a 1200 at the pace that Webb prescribed is not hard and the fact that you could boost cardiac output much better by not taking the rest by going straight to the fast 400. That is, run 1200 in the stamina zone and finish with a 400 (no rest) at 1600m pace. Then jog 3 minutes and repeat. That's much smarter. I am saying that Webb's idea of taking a 30 second reps is sort of nonsense. It serves no good purpose. It detracts from benefits one could derive by taking no rest between the 1200 and the faster work that follows.

Take care,
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Re: Alan Webb recommended workout...thoughts?

Post by Spider Man » Fri Feb 13, 2015 1:10 pm

I am kind with Tom on this ...

If running 1 Mile Repetitions with 1200m @ Threshold pace & the last 400m @ faster than Vo2Max pace ... I don't see much point in a short (30 seconds) recovery between the 1200m & 400m sections ... In a race you don't have any recovery, but practicing 'change' of pace has real value.

& With regards to the option of a fast 1 Mile race for Drew ... that's something to discuss privately with Tom ... If I had an athlete like Drew, I think I would maintain focus on his primary race distance (3000m/3200m) for key meetings, but have him run a fast 1500m/1 Mile in senior competition as a primer for the longer distance. ...

Here in the UK we have BMC (British Milers Club) fixtures that are graded on time so U17s (if they are quick enough) can run with Senior athletes in the same race ... These races nearly always involve a designated pace-maker to ensure that the pace is strong ... As a general rule across the whole (summer) season nearly half of competitors in BMC races record personal bests.

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Re: Alan Webb recommended workout...thoughts?

Post by dilluh » Fri Feb 13, 2015 1:40 pm

Taking a different perspective on this workout… Say you just do 3 x 1600 at LT (or even CV) w/ 3 min jog recovery between reps. That’s a pretty weak workout for someone who has a high level of stamina. Hell, you could do 3 x 1600 at CV with 1.5 min jog recovery and I’d still call it not all that difficult of a workout for someone in good shape stamina-wise. Now make that last 400 of the rep in the VO2 max range and you have something. I don’t see the need for the rest after the stamina-based 1200 - particularly if you’re only going to do 3-5 reps total.

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Re: Alan Webb recommended workout...thoughts?

Post by dkggpeters » Fri Feb 13, 2015 4:20 pm

The only thing I am going to add is that an 8:59 in the beginning of February is sick.

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Re: Alan Webb recommended workout...thoughts?

Post by dilluh » Mon Feb 16, 2015 12:13 pm

dkggpeters wrote:The only thing I am going to add is that an 8:59 in the beginning of February is sick.
^^ Also this. ^^

I'd have a hard time doubting the current path a coach has laid out for his athlete who can run that time, as a junior, in the middle of winter. Really an incredible result.

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