CV training and speed work

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brochford40
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CV training and speed work

Post by brochford40 » Wed Feb 24, 2016 1:34 pm

Tinman,

First off thanks for this site and all the info I learned about in letsrun.com. I am very intrigued with CV training. I was curuous about how you feel about speedwork for high school runners training for the 1600 and 3200. When is speed work appropriate in your opinion? I know some coaches who kill their kids with speed work, and to this point I have been more on the opposite end. Like i've read in some of your posts, what's the point of speed if you dont have the stamina to be up with the leaders and have a kick to win a race or run a personal best? However, I feel that some of my guys have the potential to be a bit quicker. I have a 4:28 9:40 kid, and he never really seems strong enough to have a kick at the end of a race, even when he doesn't go out too hard. Part of this is because he just naturally isn't a miler. i know he'll really find himself in the 8k and 10k in college. But if you could maybe give me some advice on appropriate speed work during a spring track season that would be great. Is CV training with some 200s at the end of workouts enough? Should I be doing fast 400s-200s with full rest at any point?

Thanks

brochford40

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Re: CV training and speed work

Post by Tinman » Thu Feb 25, 2016 1:56 pm

To quote Brendan Foster of Great Britain, former world record holder for 3,000m, "A race is all-go and no blow!" In old school parlance, that means there's no resting in a race.

I don't believe that running fast 400s with full rest does much for a miler. You see Drew Hunter kick at the end of a mile - and he has only run 51 seconds for 400m - clobber runners with superior 400m speed. How many fast 400s with full rest do you think I assign?

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brochford40
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Re: CV training and speed work

Post by brochford40 » Thu Feb 25, 2016 3:18 pm

I don't think you do any fast 400s with full rest. As a young coach i am just trying to find what I believe in, and what works for my guys. I've been a Daniels disciple to this point, and if you follow any of his plans for 1500m-3000m runners in the end of a season when peaking and even in the beginning of a season he prescribes 600s, 400s, and 200s at around Mile-800 pace with full rest. Also i know a lot of successful coaches who use simialr tactics, and have had great success, but in my opinion i think they over do it and that's why I am so interested in what you are doing with andrew and all your runners for that matter. I feel that many of my runners have not reached their potential at the end of a season because I have focused too much on spead because alot of them aren't naturally quick kids. My 15:57 xc/4:28 miler probably can't break 55 in a 400. But i feel that when I have focused on speed I stopped maintaining their endurance and stamina , so even if i improved their speed at all which is debatable, they havent been in position to use their speed because their stamina had suffered in the past few weeks.

I guess I'm just struggling with trying something new but I've read your book and have been reading on this forum and I really believe in what you are teaching. Thanks for all the info on this forum and in the book. and thanks for responding to my post.

Any other suggestions?

brochford40

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Re: CV training and speed work

Post by dilluh » Thu Feb 25, 2016 5:01 pm

I've heard that fast anaerobic work isn't really "speed" work as much as it is working on your lactate buffering capacity/clearing. Another consideration is to what percent each event is is anaerobic vs aerobic (roughly). Even the mile is a highly aerobic event if I recall correctly and if someone isn't naturally "fast," then that is all the more reason to continue to keep the focus on the high-end aerobic endurance (stamina) workouts as even modest amounts of anaerobic stuff is like kryptonite for a more endurance-oriented runner. Their best chance at success in the middle-distances is to build stamina to a very high level.

There's a thread on this forum from early 2015 where Tinman describes a spectrum of paces and the amount of time to adaptation each pace zone takes. The fastest paces take very little time for full adaptation while with the longer endurance/stamina paces, one can expect continued adaptation/improvement for long periods of time. It's a great thread that gets to the heart of Tinman's philosophy: long-term development by way of consistency (keeping the ball rolling).

For someone who is likely close to past their prime (myself) and who focuses on the 10k and a few 5ks yearly, I've found that the only speed work I really need is strides, (fast 200s infrequently) or short hill sprints (more frequently) 2-3 times per week. Add that to twice per week stamina-based workouts (easy tempo to CV) plus the filler mileage at easy pace the other days and that's my main plan for 90% of the year. I'll focus in for a few weeks before a key race with some more challenging stamina workouts that simulate the race (usually by lengthening the reps on the track) but I don't see a reason to run any truly anaerobic sessions or how they would make me more successful as a miler, 5k runner or a 10k runner or how they play into continued work in the stamina zones where the benefit:cost ratio is the best.

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Re: CV training and speed work

Post by jbarts » Thu Feb 25, 2016 7:05 pm

I can speak a little to speed work for a miler/two miler, both from my personal coaching plans for high schoolers and from working with TInman, who helped me with a runner I had who eventually ran 9:05/14:36 in high school after following Tom's plan.

I've always based training for my high school student athletes off of Tom's philosophy. It's worked out well for everyone. I can count on one hand how many times I have had student athletes run a full workout at race pace.

This runner I mention was a tall, lanky distance runner. Not a muscular body type at all. By focusing on stamina paced workouts, either CV workouts or Tinman Tempos which finished with some reps at about mile pace, he became very, very strong. His PRs improved from 400 all the way to 5000.

I've been meaning to go back and make a chart which shows progression of CV paces over the three years I was coaching him. I had a 9:15 guy before him, but please note that Tom's approach works for the sub-10 guys, to the 28 minute 5k girls, and everyone in between. Maybe now I'll go back and put that chart together.

Other student athletes in our state were injured when championships came around because they hammered workouts. We would tempo this runner through dual meets and drop him down to the mile in invites as appropriate.

Also, this kid ran 10:55 freshman year. He only dealt with one injury over four years, which was more growing pains. Keep the ball rolling, and things will fall into place.

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Re: CV training and speed work

Post by wuxcalum » Wed Mar 02, 2016 2:58 pm

brochford40,

We use a lot of Tinman style stamina work in our training and do not really feature any stand alone hard sessions like a classic 10x400 at mile pace with short rest of any other hard aerobic work of that nature. One type of workout that you may want to consider are "combo" or "mixed rep" workouts where you do a stamina component first and then a race pace component second. These workouts ensure the athletes are getting enough stamina training while still getting some race-pace/anaerobic work to feel comfortable and efficient at the speeds required of their races. Please notice the long jog recovery between the anaerobic work. Some examples might be:

4x1000 at CV w/200 jogs, 5x400 at 1600 pace with 400 jogs
4x800 at CV w/200 jogs, 4x300 at 800 pace with 500 jogs

I wan to say that I recall Tinman advised a talented 4x800 squad several years ago and his staple workout for them was something along the lines of 4x1000 at CV w/200 jogs and 3-4x400 at 800 pace with 600 jogs. Keep in mind, this was a very talented team that ran under 8:00.

Please anyone feel free to correct me if I am wrong with some of my comments above.

Jimmy

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Re: CV training and speed work

Post by Tinman » Wed Mar 02, 2016 4:12 pm

I would not call the 4 x 800m team talented. The previous year the same group of boys ran in the 8:20s for the event. After fall cross-country was over, they barely ran at all for 3 months. Very sad! I could not believe the coach was not motivating them to run in the off-season, but such is life. Anyway, with very little fitness, they started formal training in early February. They were in sad shape and no foundation. I wrote their schedule and gave it to my good friend, who ran for that coach; my good friend passed on the workout schedule to the old coach. It took a lot of time to make that schedule, by the way; not a cookie-cutter training plan!

The athletes steadily improved to about 8:20 shape by the end of April, as I recall, and they reached about 8 flat the last week of May. The end of the first week of June, at the Wisconsin State Track & Field Championship meet, the team ran 7:51 and placed 2nd. 1:57 and change average per boy. I think the fastest boy the previous year was 2:05. I would have to check with my friend, but that's my recollection.

I assigned a weekly or twice weekly combination workout (I called them combo workouts), including stamina reps and shorter, faster reps. It's a magic recipe, I think.

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