Running Times Training Article

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kevinm
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Running Times Training Article

Post by kevinm » Fri Sep 14, 2012 2:29 pm

Man, this is quite the contrast to Tinman training!

http://runningtimes.com/Article.aspx?Ar ... aterSystem

BoilerTom90
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Re: Running Times Training Article

Post by BoilerTom90 » Fri Sep 14, 2012 2:36 pm

I read that when it came out in print. Yes, very, very different from Tinman's approach. Though, he does say he doesn't believe his "lots of quality" approach will work for 5Ks.  Is this guy just lucky to get some very talented runners that respond to this type of training? I know when I was in HS I'd get worn down and sick with that type of training.

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Re: Running Times Training Article

Post by dkggpeters » Sat Sep 15, 2012 5:51 pm

I was thinking the same thing if he was lucky on getting talented athletes.  The article really stressed that 4 runners went on to run sub 4 in college.  Makes you think if it was the training program in college which they didn't mention that may have stressed volume over the methods used in High School.  Kind of hard to draw conclusions without this information.  Tinman probably knows a lot more about this.

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Re: Running Times Training Article

Post by Schebo » Sun Sep 16, 2012 10:43 am

Absolutely nothing strange about that. It reminds me a lot of the training I did when I was a teenager, and I ended up running a 3,44 1500 when I was 20. Then I started to race longer distances (and changed the training) and ended up running 14,01/29,10. What some people don´t understand is that if you want to be a successful track runner you have to develop your all-out speed while you´re a teenager. After that it´s too late. Those who say that it doesn´t promote long term development are wrong. It only does if you don´t know how to build on the previous training. In America this can be a problem when you have a high school coach and then a different coach in college. I had the same coach during my entire career, and he knew exactly what he was doing. Four of his runners ran in international outdoor track championships.
A little clarification: when I say speed I mean SPEED. Running 400s until you puke has nothing to do with speed. Before the age of 19 I never ran more than 6 400s or 10 200s in one session, and we always broke up those sessions in sets.

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Re: Running Times Training Article

Post by Tinman » Sun Sep 16, 2012 11:39 am

I think that USA university coaches do an inadequate job of finding out and using what their athletes did in high school, in terms of training. There's an arrogance (or perhaps fear) that a university coach must have complete knowledge about how to train their athletes, but the truth is many high school coaches do a very good job of developing skill-sets for their athletes; and those skill-sets could be developed further, or at least maintained by university coaches; if those coaches wold simply communicate with the high school coach(s) about training that was prescribed previously.
Last edited by Tinman on Sun Sep 16, 2012 11:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Running Times Training Article

Post by distcoach » Thu Sep 27, 2012 11:51 am

I had the chance to listen to Scott Christensen talk this spring at the Wisconsin Track Coaches Clinic.  Very very knowledgable and bases all of his training on science.  Used to use more of a Lydiard approach until he decided to become a level 3 track coach and learned sprints.  He then took some of what he learned from the sprints and applied it to his distance guys.  When he says his program doesn't work with 5k's... not so sure about that.  His cross country team (Stillwater) is one of the top 10-15 teams in the country right now with 3 guys sub 16:00 (15:14, 15:49, 15:53) and a few more in the 16:00's (16:15, 16:30, 16:31).  Granted it helps having about 60-70 athletes on your team, but his program has been consistently one of the best in the country.  I have a dvd with all of his slides.  If I remember correctly, he has a 12 day cycle for his 1600 guys in track and a 9 day cycle for his 3200 guys.  I'm guessing he focuses more on the 9 day cycle for the cross season.  He bases a lot of his speed stuff on Horwill and Coe. 

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Re: Running Times Training Article

Post by distcoach » Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:01 pm

And his training isn't 400's until you puke either.  He focuses on speed with proper rest.  Here's his 12 day cycle for his 800/1600 guys:
Day 1 - VO2 Max workout
Day 2 - Hills
Day 3 - Long Run
Day 4 - Special Endurance 1
Day 5 - Recovery Run
Day 6 - Race
Day 7 - Special Endurance 2
Day 8 - Tempo Run
Day 9 - Recovery Run
Day 10 - Speed Endurance
Day 11 - Recovery Run
Day 12 - Speed

He likes to devote each day to one specific pace.  I'm a little different and like to do multi-paces each workout but I don't have a national powerhouse program either.

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Re: Running Times Training Article

Post by dkggpeters » Thu Sep 27, 2012 9:49 pm

Stillwater is ranked as #9 this week.

RANKINGS, TEAMS, BOYS (school, location):
1. Christian Brothers Academy, Lincroft, NJ
2. Southlake Carroll HS, Southlake, TX
3. American Fork HS, American Fork, UT
4. North Central HS, Spokane, WA
5. St. Xavier HS, Cincinnati, OH
6. Arcadia HS, Arcadia, CA
7.St. Xavier HS, Louisville, KY
8. Cardinal O'Hara, Springfield, PA
9. Stillwater Area HS, Oak Park, MN
10. York HS, Elmhurst, IL
11. Bismarck HS, Bismarck, ND
12. Fayetteville-Manlius HS, Manlius, NY
13. The Woodlands HS, The Woodlands, TX
14. Herriman HS, Herriman, UT
15. Davis HS, Kaysville, UT
16. Carmel HS, Carmel, IN
17. Sue Cleveland HS, Rio Rancho, NM
18. Blacksburg HS, Blacksburg, VA
19. Dowling Catholic HS, West Des Moines, IA
20. Kamiakin HS, Kennewick, WA
21. Los Alamos HS, Los Alamos, NM
22. Bishop Hendricken HS, Warwick, RI
23. North Allegheny, Wexford, PA
24. Chantilly HS, Chantilly, VA
25. Highland Milford HS, Highland MI

ZachCC
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Re: Running Times Training Article

Post by ZachCC » Fri Sep 28, 2012 7:25 am

That 12 day cycle looks tough-especially Days 6-8, would love to see what 9 day 3200 meter cycle looks like. I could see why young kids would like this time of plan, because of the variety, plus most kids, rather do quicker shorter than slower longer. :D

dkggpeters
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Re: Running Times Training Article

Post by dkggpeters » Fri Sep 28, 2012 8:08 am

What is done on the special endurance days?

distcoach
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Re: Running Times Training Article

Post by distcoach » Sun Sep 30, 2012 4:48 pm

So I finally dug up the slides (sorry, busy with meets, practice, work, and anniversary this weekend!).  Here's the 9 day cycle that Coach Christensen uses for his 3200-5000 meter guys.  He doesn't include speed endurance. 
Day 1 - VO2 max workout (Date Pace)
Day 2 - Hills/Speed (Max Effort)
Day 3 - Recovery Run (Date Pace)
Day 4 - Special Endurance 1 (Goal Pace)
Day 5 - Recovery Run (Date Pace)
Day 6 - Race (Date Pace)
Day 7 - Long Run (Date Pace)
Day 8 - Special Endurance 2 (Goal Pace)
Day 9 - Tempo Run (Date Pace)

The Long Run is 20-25% of weekly mileage, at 70% vVO2 max

Example of VO2 max work is 4x1 mile with equal rest using Daniels vDot
Special Endurance 2: 10 x 500 meters at near max effort on grass, barefoot (sure they have to work up to this) with 3-5 minutes rest
Special Endurance 2: 8 x 400 at 5 seconds faster than 1600 pace with 3 minutes rest (on track)
Special Endurance 1: 2 sets of 3x300.  3 min between rep, 5 between sets.  Goal pace at .35 season 800 goal pace
Special Endurance 1: 6 x 45s fast, 2 min jog in between
Speed Endurance: 6x150 almost all out, 4 min rest
Speed: Up to 12 x 30 meter all out with 4 min jog rest (4 mile cool down)
Tempo: 6-7k at 92% VO2 max; 8-9k at 90%

Some of these workouts change once you're trying to peak like:
Special Endurance 2 - 4x500 with 15 min rest - current 800 pace x .59
Special Endurance 1 - 6x200 near max with 8 minutes rest

Also, I have in my notes he does these cycles for 24 weeks (claims it takes 24 weeks to fully develop VO2 max). 

Anyways, hope this helps... little different than Tinman training!

Jim
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Re: Running Times Training Article

Post by Jim » Mon Oct 01, 2012 10:55 am

Special endurance is like near max effort, so about 1500m pace?  So workout 1 is 5000m of reps at 1500m pace and workout 2 looks like about 3200m worth of running at 800m pace.  Sorry but that is insane.

ZachCC
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Re: Running Times Training Article

Post by ZachCC » Tue Oct 02, 2012 7:14 am

Thanks for posting Distcoach! ;D

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Re: Running Times Training Article

Post by distcoach » Fri Jun 07, 2013 12:47 pm

So Stillwater has 3 guys that have run under 9:07 for 3200 this year... including a frosh that went 8:58 today at the state meet.  And a 1:54 guy.  Their team is insane, but they are completely dedicated to the program. 

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Re: Running Times Training Article

Post by ZachCC » Sat Jun 08, 2013 9:44 am

Wow,  smokin!! :)
I might need to study his training methods more closely.

thanks for update!!

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