renato canova training philosphy

A place for participants to share personal training logs, as well as training plans and ideas. These discussions are open to runners of ALL levels.

Moderators: Moderator, Global Moderator

Run4ms
Full Member
Full Member
Posts: 104
Joined: Wed May 02, 2012 9:35 pm

renato canova training philosphy

Post by Run4ms » Sun Nov 18, 2012 2:37 pm

fellow running friends,

just curious as to whom here follows the basic principles of Canova's training philosophy? This is essentially 3 phases: build-up, base, and specific.  I am thinking of following his principles for a little while and was wondering if anyone out there follows his methods ....can you offer any advise? 

I appreciate anything else that has worked for you.  I will sit back and see what you guys come up with here.

Spider Man
Jr. Member
Jr. Member
Posts: 72
Joined: Sat May 05, 2012 2:59 pm

Re: renato canova training philosphy

Post by Spider Man » Mon Nov 19, 2012 8:50 am

Run4ms,

My initial question would be ... why do you want to use a Canova approach "for a little while"?

The Canova method is based on having a clear Target Race at the end of the process. Unless you have something specific in mind, it will just be an aimless exercise. Moreover, Canova himself has said that a very strong aerobic base developed over many years is a pre-requisite for his approach. Do you have such a strong base? .

Spider Man.

Clell
Full Member
Full Member
Posts: 106
Joined: Mon May 17, 2010 8:50 pm

Re: renato canova training philosphy

Post by Clell » Mon Nov 19, 2012 9:59 am

I would start by reading all the Tinman Articles on this site to begin with.  There is much beneficial information to digest and assimilate.

dkggpeters
Hero Member
Hero Member
Posts: 640
Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2012 3:11 pm

Re: renato canova training philosphy

Post by dkggpeters » Mon Nov 19, 2012 4:50 pm

I find Tinman's training approach is not that much different then Canova's.

Run4ms
Full Member
Full Member
Posts: 104
Joined: Wed May 02, 2012 9:35 pm

Re: renato canova training philosphy

Post by Run4ms » Mon Nov 19, 2012 10:38 pm

I agree that it isn't much different from Tinman, but I am planning to follow Canova's philosophy for this time around and see what happends.  I do have one major race that I am going to train for that takes place late June. 

I am just trying something different here that's all.  And if anyone out there really and fully understands Canova's methods I would really enjoy reading what you have to say.

Spider Man
Jr. Member
Jr. Member
Posts: 72
Joined: Sat May 05, 2012 2:59 pm

Re: renato canova training philosphy

Post by Spider Man » Tue Nov 20, 2012 7:46 am

For a better understanding of Canova ....

An useful place to start would be this blog post by John Davis on his "Running Writings" website ....
http://runningwritings.blogspot.co.uk/2011/09/peaking-with-renato-canova_28.html#more

Another good source would be Steve Magness' "The Science of Running" website
(just type in Canova into his 'search' facility)

What you should realise is that Canova never gives the same training programme to two different athletes. Each of his athletes is trained individually, & planned sessions may be changed from day to day depending on how the athlete responds to earlier training inputs. The only way to truly follow a Canova programme/plan is to be coached by him.

The nearest alternative to Canova is Brad Hudson (see his book "Run Faster"). Hudson has been heavily influenced by Canova ... he offers schedules (in the book) that might be helpful to you.

Best of luck!

dkggpeters
Hero Member
Hero Member
Posts: 640
Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2012 3:11 pm

Re: renato canova training philosphy

Post by dkggpeters » Tue Nov 20, 2012 8:44 am

Runms,

I wasn't trying to say not to try Canova's method.  I was only making a statement that I think Tinman's philosophy has a lot of similarities to Canova's.  I actually agree with and like Canova's methods of training.

Dave

Run4ms
Full Member
Full Member
Posts: 104
Joined: Wed May 02, 2012 9:35 pm

Re: renato canova training philosphy

Post by Run4ms » Tue Nov 20, 2012 2:35 pm

Right...I appreciate the info guys! I'm just trying something a little different for this season.  I will blend Tinman's and Canova's methods to fit my own fitness and ability. 

I also started to dig around on here (therunzone) and found some interesting points that Tinman made regarding Canova's methods and the runner Nate Jenkins who was a huge advocate of Canova and implemented his philosophy in to his daily training.  All great reads.

Tinman
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 4283
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 12:02 am

Re: renato canova training philosphy

Post by Tinman » Tue Nov 20, 2012 11:15 pm

As a general rule, there are similarities between Canvoa's methods and mine. Both are based on aerobic conditioning, foremost, mutli-faceted training, and training the individual, not just training everyone the same.

It's important to know and remember that the athletes Canova works with are not older, not new to running, and they have no obligations other than to train. His athletes are the best, the cream of the crop, before he works with them. He makes them better, no doubt about it, and he is a good coach, but you must not try to replicate the workouts he assigns for world class runners who have years and thousands of hours of aerobic conditioning behind them, and a lot of that conditioning was in bare feet, over clay roads or no roads, and the result is both endurance and strength that are so high that only a handful of Caucasian runners are at the same level, anywhere. If you use his methods, be sensible and tone down the severity of the workouts. Understand the key principles of his methods, not just the exact workouts or mileage that his runners do. Principles are what matter!

I think my methods work better for non-world class runners.  I also think my methods will work very well for world class runners too.  I'd love the challenge! I just would up the ante of my methods for world class runners, making their workouts more extensive, though the principles would be the same.
Last edited by Tinman on Tue Nov 20, 2012 11:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Tinman
(coaching available)
Inquire via email:
runfastcoach@gmail.com

Spider Man
Jr. Member
Jr. Member
Posts: 72
Joined: Sat May 05, 2012 2:59 pm

Re: renato canova training philosphy

Post by Spider Man » Wed Nov 21, 2012 6:32 am

[quote="Tinman"]
I think my methods work better for non-world class runners.  I also think my methods will work very well for world class runners too.  I'd love the challenge! I just would up the ante of my methods for world class runners, making their workouts more extensive, though the principles would be the same.
[/quote]

Tinman, I note that you say that you would make the workouts more extensive ... by which, I assume that in an individual workout such an athlete might to more at a given intensity ... e.g. 10-12 x 1K @ CV pace (as opposed to 6-7 x 1K for mere mortals).

Question: Given the already high endurance/stamina levels of world class athletes, would you have them do more intensive training as well? (e.g. more work at AP, as opposed to CV)

Tinman
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 4283
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 12:02 am

Re: renato canova training philosphy

Post by Tinman » Wed Nov 21, 2012 12:34 pm

I would prescribe more volume of quality workouts for world-class runners, but the overall frequency and balance would not be much different. I've said it for 23 years, and it is based on research by Fox and Matthews who were doctors as The Ohio State University, two hard workouts a week is all anyone every needs, regardless of how talented they are or how fast they run. I've argued for two decades that pushing three or four hard workouts per week is not an effective long-term approach for training runners. Sure, an easy quality workout in which the volume is low each week in addition to two primary quality workouts is fine. An example that approach was used by Bill Bowerman and Bill Dellinger for many years with elite runners. They often gave 4 x 1/4th mile or 4 x 400m workouts on Thursdays, or 8 x 200m, at about 1-mile speed. For an elite runners, that's about one-third or one-fourth of a "hard" workout for them. It's basically akin to my neural prep workouts. It smoothes out the stride and primes the pump, so to speak, before a weekend race or weekend key workout.

As an example, if a 17.5 minute 5km runner runs  5-7 x 1km at CV pace using my training system, then a 13 minute 5km runner will cover 11-12 x 1km at CV pace. If a tempo is 4-6 miles for a 17.5 minutes 6km runner using my system, then it is more like 8-12 miles for a 13-14 minute 5km runner. I've always called it Extensibility Training. Maybe there is a better term, but I've stuck by it because it's logical to me and fits my belief system and approach to coaching runners. It's based on two of my core beliefs about training and performance.

Tinman
Last edited by Tinman on Wed Nov 21, 2012 12:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Tinman
(coaching available)
Inquire via email:
runfastcoach@gmail.com

Spider Man
Jr. Member
Jr. Member
Posts: 72
Joined: Sat May 05, 2012 2:59 pm

Re: renato canova training philosphy

Post by Spider Man » Wed Nov 21, 2012 1:52 pm

Thanks Tinman! ... much appreciated.

One further question ...

The best young athlete in my training group runs sub 17 for 5K @ age 14. I currently prescribe 4 x 1200m @ CV pace for this athlete on a (more or less) fortnightly basis. Would you advise an appropriate volume of CV work for this session based on his 5K time, or would you (as I have done) temper this given his relative young age?

Tinman
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 4283
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 12:02 am

Re: renato canova training philosphy

Post by Tinman » Wed Nov 21, 2012 2:00 pm

This might help you (it's from the book I didn't publish, but may someday):

Tinman's CV workout Chart

5000m CV Kilometers
Time per workout
13:00 12
13:58 11
15:01 9
16:09 8
17:22 7
18:40 6
20:04 5
21:34 4
23:11 3
24:55 2
26:48 1
Tinman
(coaching available)
Inquire via email:
runfastcoach@gmail.com

Tinman
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 4283
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 12:02 am

Re: renato canova training philosphy

Post by Tinman » Wed Nov 21, 2012 7:04 pm

Some people who I coach may look at my chart and say, "I only ran 7 reps and the charts shows that at my performance level I can run 8 reps. Why don't I run 8 reps?" That's because I look at the big-picture as I coach runners. One workout does not make or break a runner. A workout is like a piece of a puzzle. The piece fits into a mosaic. A workout is part of a cycle, and a cycle is part of a sequence, and a sequence of part of bigger cycle, and so on. I may choose to limit a runner to 7 reps, or 6 or 5 reps based on how much stress-pressure they have experienced in racing and training recently or what is coming ahead. Big-picture consideration is very important! To blend the ingredients well, you must know how every workout, every mile run, every situation's needs, and so on influence each other.

Tinman
Tinman
(coaching available)
Inquire via email:
runfastcoach@gmail.com

Run4ms
Full Member
Full Member
Posts: 104
Joined: Wed May 02, 2012 9:35 pm

Re: renato canova training philosphy

Post by Run4ms » Wed Nov 21, 2012 7:18 pm

Tinman,

What are your thoughts on Canova's philosophy on trying to keep a high volume (130 miles) throughout his phases.  How would you curtail volume for the non elite runner?

Post Reply