PB vs training schedule

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mukis
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PB vs training schedule

Post by mukis » Fri Dec 28, 2012 4:34 pm

Hi,

just writing to borrow your brains, especially from people that have left running for other sports and that are now back, starting a training routine with tinman, which feels great! Thanks tinman!

I have been back to racing since a couple of years. I am 34 y.o. Left the running team 10 years ago. I have been keeping fit especially with triathlons, biking and club swimming, but that appears to have slowed me down nonetheless. I had a PB of 34.45 (season 2003/4) and this year is 41.24.

It is a fact that I have been training/racing in tropical climate and adaptation has NOT been easy >:( Another element is that I moved from a ratio of 1.79m/69kg to 1.79/73kg, with most of the bulk in shoulders and back due the kms spent in the pool and openwaters.

Plus, especially between the 30 and the 34 I have felt a sudden loss of...flexibility - I need to be extra thourough in warming-up, more dependant on constant work to produce results, more prone to injuries. Oh, well, I believe that is the age.

Now, the question: how would a coach or a fellow runner rate such a drop from 35PB to 41PB? I mean guys, I'm just asking out there: how has it been for you? Is there anyone there willing to share and compare? Please be cruel ;D

One more question, which is puzzling me. I was musing over TIN's running calculator, and I noticed that I tended to run below the indicated paces in my tempos and in my fast rep runs (especially the fractions from 3k to 200mt).
For example: I finished in 41:24/20:02 the last 10k/5k.  When I prepared the race, my peak workouts where 9*1000 at 3:45; 15*400 at 1:20 (first 10 reps) to 1:30 max (last 5 resp) (200jog rec); 10*400 at 1:20 (200jog rec) and 14*200 (jog rec) at 25sec max. I wouldn’t say these trainings were easy, but I would say I had no problem - considered I have run this stuff at 30 degrees and 80% relative humidity. I mean, I had something more in my legs after that: at least I went home and had some upper part gym in the afternoon;)
Should I have run with less intensity this fast stuff and thrown in some more long runs?More tempo runs (which I almost ignored)? What would you say runners and coaches out there?

Thanks a lot guys, any opinion/experience will be much appreciated.

Ciao,
Massimo

mukis
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Re: PB vs training schedule

Post by mukis » Sat Dec 29, 2012 2:05 am

OK, went through the forum and read past answers. Sorry for the re-post.

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Re: PB vs training schedule

Post by dkggpeters » Sun Dec 30, 2012 9:35 am

How long are your recoveries with you did 9 x 1,000?  Something is not adding up.  You claim you did these at 6:00/mi pace yet can only hold a 6:40/mi pace on the 10k.  On my last training cycle I did 7 x 1,000 at the same pace with 200m recoveries and was able to run a 6 mile tempo at 6:15 pace.  if I raced a 10k I would predict a 37 to 38 time.  I am 49 and my PR at 17 was 33:30.  So I am looking at about a 3:30 drop in time over 32 years and I smoked for a lot of those years.

Are you not doing any tempo runs?  What is your long run?  Sounds like you have no endurance although if you were able to do 9 x 1,000 at 6 pace then you should have been able to run 37 or better in my opinion.

Dave

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Re: PB vs training schedule

Post by mukis » Mon Dec 31, 2012 10:30 am

>>How long are your recoveries with you did 9 x 1,000?  Something is not adding up.  You claim you did these at 6:00/mi pace yet can only hold a 6:40/mi pace on the 10k.  On my last training cycle I did 7 x 1,000 at the same pace with 200m recoveries and was able to run a 6 mile tempo at 6:15 pace.  if I raced a 10k I would predict a 37 to 38 time.  I am 49 and my PR at 17 was 33:30.  So I am looking at about a 3:30 drop in time over 32 years and I smoked for a lot of those years.>>

First of all thanks a lot for the reply!
Secondly: I agree, I was expecting better - and I did fare better last season, running at 4'30"km during long runs and generally doing lots of tempo.

I would guess the recovery thing is an interesting element? 1"30 recovery.

>>Are you not doing any tempo runs?  What is your long run?  Sounds like you have no endurance although if you were able to do 9 x 1,000 at 6 pace then you should have been able to run 37 or better in my opinion.>>
I must admit I did only one tempo run in 3 months training. Long run averagely 14km (between 12 and 17), but not consistent enough.

Two more elements:
- I used to run during university in Italy (below zero in winther and very few runs during the hot summer) and in England (which I adored, rainy but always cool).
- I swapped mildly-weathered Barcelona (long runs with hills, average 20degrees) for Sao Paulo (spring and summer, averaging 27degrees with strong humidity. One good news is that I ended 8th, 20th and 24th overall, and 4th and 8th in my category (races of 3000 to 4000 people), right behind the elite runners. I am just asking myself if the weather can affect so much performance? I never had such a bad experience.

You've given me food for thought, though. Thanks!

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Re: PB vs training schedule

Post by dkggpeters » Mon Dec 31, 2012 1:23 pm

Your height and weight is comparable to mine (I am 1.78m and 73kg).  Weight will impact your time if you were lighter when you did your PR.  It is about 4 seconds per mile per kg (2 sec per lb) so if you were 5 kg lower you would lose approx 20 seconds a mile which would result in 2 minutes.

Weather will impact your times and for me it is humidity that hurts me.  Having said that, you did your CV intervals in comparable conditions and on shorter races it plays less of a role.  For a 10k I would guess no more then a minute.

What kind of shape and training were you doing when you ran 34:45?  I doubt that age should have any impact being only 34.

Your recoveries on the CV's at 1:30 is consistent with mine at 1:15 to 1:20.  Are you completely killing yourself on this workout and digging really deep?  Mine is hard but I could do more reps and am not racing them.  Your CV intervals would indicate a time of 37:30 or so and your 41+ is way off of this.

Was the last 10k just a bad race?  Did you go out to fast and die?  Or was it consistently paced?  If you died then this would account for a bad time.  Or maybe it was just a bad race.

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Re: PB vs training schedule

Post by Tinman » Mon Dec 31, 2012 3:42 pm

If I were your coach, and you were at 37:30 for 10k, I'd prescribe the following:

Reps Distance Pace Recovery Time "GO" Time
6 1000m 3:43.7 1:10           4:54

Take care,

Tinman

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mukis
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Re: PB vs training schedule

Post by mukis » Tue Jan 01, 2013 9:36 am

mmmh, all good questions...well when i did my PB I was 68 kg and training intensely/focusing almost every day. It was not so during the last 10 years. Anyway, I believe there is room for improvement.
And in regards to the race, Yes, I did go out fast and died: I passed the 5k below the 20mark. But then for some reason I could not keep that rithm during second half and I lost the first position in my category: I was passed by 3 athletes who managed better the race during km 9. I suppose there's the mental part as well.
Anyway, I'll post better results in 3/4 months, I am confident ;)

Tom, thanks for the tip: from all I have read so far here I believe I have lacked some aerobic conditioning this year overall, which i always religiously respected in 10 years, whereas during last half of 2012 I have spent forces on pushing my CV in trainings. This has produced two errors: I have injured myself for the first time (achilles tendonitis) and got worst results than the year before. Back to basics with your schedule then...we're in 2013!!!

Thanks guy happy new year!

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Re: PB vs training schedule

Post by Tinman » Tue Jan 01, 2013 12:56 pm

mukis,

Just to clarify for any of our readers of this thread, it's my opinion that were training at a my faster pace/higher intensity than CV. Therefore, it would not be fair to say that you were doing too much CV training by pushing the frequency or volume of it. Instead, your training too fast, and that was not maximizing your potential development of stamina - the ability to use your Type IIa fibers in a sustained fashion; that's why you were "dying" during the second half of your 10km race. I doubt you had a deficiency in power or V.O2 max; you slowed down because your Type IIa fiber's stamina was weak; they tired-out and could not sustain fractional power after a certain point. The same principle applies for middle distance runners; when they just hammer away at race-pace or faster speeds they increase peak power but they cannot hold a fractional power level (below maximum sprint speed) for long enough to get a good mid-distance race-time. Because of their high power/speed, they can run the first third of their race fast and feel comfortable, but during the middle of the race they notice right away that their legs are getting very tired; they have to make a choice of either backing off the pace so that they have a sprint finish or holding pace, in which case they have to hope that they don't die in the last third of the race (but this happens about four times as often as the opposite - not slowing down when they need to / want to finish fast). If you take the average 800-1500m runner and give them a lot of CV work, and then tack on small amounts of speed, they run faster than when they run a lot of reps at race-pace or faster. This is basic Lydiard principle in play!

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Re: PB vs training schedule

Post by mukis » Tue Jan 01, 2013 9:31 pm

Yep, now's clearer to me. Thanks again guys!
Massimo

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Re: PB vs training schedule

Post by dkggpeters » Wed Jan 02, 2013 11:36 am

Tinman,  very interesting.  I always knew that running the correct paces/intensity was important but not to that extent.  Thanks for the info.

For those whom have a hard time keeping interval paces in check you may want to consider doing them on a treadmill as you can control your interval and recovery paces precisely.  I have had great success with doing this and use a footpod which is calibrated to ensure that the treadmill speed is where it should be.  I also try to run them on the same treadmill in my Gym if possible and use the high end ones.

Dave

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Re: PB vs training schedule

Post by dkggpeters » Wed Jan 02, 2013 4:02 pm

Tinman,

If you don't race much and as your fitness improves I sometimes use heart rate to base training paces.  What % of MHR should CV's be ran at?

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Re: PB vs training schedule

Post by Tinman » Wed Jan 02, 2013 10:45 pm

91-93% of HR max or about 15 beats below HR max is CV.

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Re: PB vs training schedule

Post by oro » Thu Jan 03, 2013 4:17 am

Tinman,
and what would the HR for slow and fast tinman tempo runs be?

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Re: PB vs training schedule

Post by dkggpeters » Thu Jan 03, 2013 9:26 am

Look at this link for heart rates for tempos/CV's answered by Tinman previously:

http://www.therunzone.com//viewtopic.php?p=14782#p14782

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Re: PB vs training schedule

Post by oro » Thu Jan 03, 2013 9:27 am

Thanks, dkggpeters!

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