Master Runner seeks Sub-20 5k - tweaked speedwork

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Tinman
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Re: Master Runner seeks Sub-20 5k

Post by Tinman » Thu Jan 24, 2013 8:30 pm

I think the training schedule is excessively hard, unless you are running in the 14-15 minute range for 5km.

You train about twice as hard as Kevin Miller, whom I coach, and he can run in the 15s for 5km at age 51. He does about the same mileage as you, probably as slow as you for his easy runs though.

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Re: Master Runner seeks Sub-20 5k

Post by MothAudio » Thu Jan 24, 2013 9:17 pm

Thanks. Since I'm unfamiliar with the athlete it would be inappropriate to comment on the brief outline or the results based on it.

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Re: Master Runner seeks Sub-20 5k

Post by dkggpeters » Thu Jan 24, 2013 10:33 pm

The point is you are doing more quality then I am currently doing and I am gunning for a low 2:50's marathon.  There is no reason to do that much quality.  2 x 5 miles at HMP is way to hard.  At MP would be an appropriate pace but not HMP.  8 x 1k should be more like 5 or no more then 6 for a 20 minute 5k runner.  I don't even do that much.

By doing to much quality you are leaving your performances out on the road.  Cut them down and you will do better in the races.  I know it sounds counter-intuitive but it works.

MothAudio

Re: Master Runner seeks Sub-20 5k

Post by MothAudio » Thu Jan 24, 2013 11:42 pm

I don't like to compare and comment on other runner's training and schedules when I  know little to nothing about their background. I was running much faster times on a lot less quality in my prime but I'm not the same runner. I'm doing 4x the mileage I was back then. People look at my schedule and shake their head [or run and hide] but this is something I've been slowly building on over the course of ten years.

If I'm running faster times, completing my workouts and maintaining moderately high mileage [70-80 mpw] and not getting injured or burnt out why I should make changes just because my schedule is more demanding than what another [successful] runner is doing? There are many ways to achieve the same result. The key is to understand how to adapt proven training principals and stimulus to the individual strengths and weaknesses of each runner. There are 7 weeks of 5k or faster training in my schedule. The schedule isn't written in stone, I may consider trimming back the length of the intervals in the front half of the schedule and or make adjustments on the fly if them seem overwhelming.

I appreciate everyone's input.

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Re: Master Runner seeks Sub-20 5k - tweaked speedwork

Post by dkggpeters » Fri Jan 25, 2013 9:59 am

We are not knocking the total weekly mileage.  What the consensus is that there is to much quality.  As Tinman stated, he would expect a 14 to 15 minute 5k runner to run that much volume of quality.

You seemed really defensive on the last comment.  My question is if that training is working for you then why are you asking what to do to break 20 in the 5k?  We are only trying to help and believe me that I used to have the same view as it was he whom put in the most work had the most success.  I was constantly burnt out and injured.  We all think that we are unique but Tinman has had the opportunity to observe hundreds of runners and knows what works and what doesn't.

Food for though.  In the summer Olympics Ryan Lochte was supposed to crush everyone in all his races as he trained like a madman for the previous four years.  He trained harder then everyone else.  His performances were somewhat lackluster and he didn't win all of his races and didn't perform well in a lot of them.  He even claimed later that he feels that he trained to hard and should have dialed it back.

Tinman has probably seen a ton of guys and gals leave there potential performance out on the road in training.  Train to race.  If you perform to much quality then you are essentially racing workouts and your performances will suffer.

MothAudio

Re: Master Runner seeks Sub-20 5k - tweaked speedwork

Post by MothAudio » Fri Jan 25, 2013 12:58 pm

My comment about volume referenced the two [2] weekly quality workouts, not my overall mileage. The reason for my OP was to receive feedback. I appreciate everyone's thoughts and I'm listening but I'm also addressing issues that have been raised. I'm sure that's acceptable.

Like I said, I'm still getting faster each year but have yet to accomplish my ultimate goal [one of them] and have made significant changes to my previous 5k schedules in an effort to make up those 39 seconds. Of course, I'm a different runner than I was even a year ago and it's hard to forecast just how much the aging process is affecting this challenge. But those that are familiar with my running feel a sub-20 isn't unrealistic. I'm simply looking for additional feedback. 

I appreciate everyone's input.

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Re: Master Runner seeks Sub-20 5k - tweaked speedwork

Post by Tinman » Fri Jan 25, 2013 1:56 pm

Moth -

My suggestion for you is twofold:

1) Limit 5km paced reps to 6 minutes. If your reps take longer than that, it's likely you "race" during practice sessons rather than train during them. I thik 2km at 5km race-pace is appropriate for a 14 flat 5km runner (or under), but it's too long for a 20-flat runner. If I were coaching you, the normal 5km race reps would be 3-4 minutes in duration.

2) Ask yourself this: Am I able to race every weekend at 5km, if I want to, and run strongly? If you can't, then you are training too hard. You should be able to recover by Wednesday, if you raced on Saturday, and then  you can or should do a moderate workout on Wednesday before another Saturday 5km race.  If you cannot race on consecutive weekends at 5km, then you should tweak your hard sessions/tame them a bit.

Your mileage is at the upper limit. At 70-80 miles per week at your level is the top I would prescribe. That's a lot of time on your feet already! I suspect you would be able to handle 60-miles per week, every week of the year, and for 6-week periods of time you could extend the volume to the 70-80m range before tapering for a peak performance. It may be worth it to do that twice, maybe three times, per year.

I wish you well and keep enjoying what you are doing!

Take care,

Tinman

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Re: Master Runner seeks Sub-20 5k - tweaked speedwork

Post by MothAudio » Fri Jan 25, 2013 9:57 pm

[quote="Tinman"]
Moth -

My suggestion for you is twofold:

1) Limit 5km paced reps to 6 minutes. If your reps take longer than that, it's likely you "race" during practice sessons rather than train during them. I thik 2km at 5km race-pace is appropriate for a 14 flat 5km runner (or under), but it's too long for a 20-flat runner. If I were coaching you, the normal 5km race reps would be 3-4 minutes in duration.

2) Ask yourself this: Am I able to race every weekend at 5km, if I want to, and run strongly? If you can't, then you are training too hard. You should be able to recover by Wednesday, if you raced on Saturday, and then  you can or should do a moderate workout on Wednesday before another Saturday 5km race.  If you cannot race on consecutive weekends at 5km, then you should tweak your hard sessions/tame them a bit.

Your mileage is at the upper limit. At 70-80 miles per week at your level is the top I would prescribe. That's a lot of time on your feet already! I suspect you would be able to handle 60-miles per week, every week of the year, and for 6-week periods of time you could extend the volume to the 70-80m range before tapering for a peak performance. It may be worth it to do that twice, maybe three times, per year.

I wish you well and keep enjoying what you are doing!

Take care,

Tinman

www.runningprs.com
[/quote]

Here's my 2012 Fall racing schedule [5ks, and a couple of baby jogger 5ks where I pushed my 9 YO, 14k and half] and how quickly I was able to resume training and  recover for races the following weekend.

Week 38: 36 miles
Monday: SRD
Tuesday: 8 miles 1:12:08 - 9:00 avg. pace - 3x1000m @ 7:15 pace w/3x600m recovery @ 7:44 pace = 3 continuous miles @ 7:23 pace + 2x200m hill sprints @ 5:45 pace. Wind began to kick up pretty good so I broke it off at 3 miles.
Wednesday: 4 miles 40:16 - 10:04 avg. pace - recovery on hilly trail
Thursday: 8 miles 1:13:15 - 9:01 avg. pace - 2x2:00 @ 6:56 pace w/2:00 jog + strides
Friday: 5 miles 44:30 - 8:53 avg. pace - 6x400m @ 1:41 - 1:48 w/400m jog recovery
Saturday: 11 miles including 14k race [1:02:26]. I'm happy :>
Sunday: USRD - chillin'

Week 39: 79 miles
Monday: SRD
Tuesday: 10 miles 1:20:25 - 8:02 avg. pace - moderate. Wow, felt great! So kool to be cruising along aerobically at this pace. Two of the last 4 miles were @ 7:42 pace.
Wednesday: 12 miles 1:41:24 - 8:27 avg. pace - easy A.M. / Another solid run. Counted 188 steps per minute @ a relaxing 8:30 pace. / 4 miles @ 4.7 mph + 4x200m @ 9.0 mph w/front / back hops recovery / XT reverse leg press 3 sets P.M.
Thursday: 8 miles 1:11:12 - 8:54 avg. pace - easy A.M. / 8 miles 1:11:29 - 8:55 avg. pace - easy P.M.
Friday: 8 miles 1:10:32 - 8:49 avg. pace - easy. Felt like a pig. Stopped in the FinishLine during my run and ordered another pair of the Lunar Montreals.
Saturday: 15 miles 2:04:56 - 8:19 avg. pace - 3x5k @ 7:31 avg. pace w/1000m recovery 23:21 / 23:19 / 23:32
Sunday: 4 miles 34:47 - 8:39 avg. pace - easy A.M. / 10 miles 1:27:40 - 8:46 avg. pace - easy P.M.

Week 42: 42 miles - Taper
Monday: SRD - legs feel like pistons - wanna run!!!
Tuesday: 6 miles 52:30 - 8:45 avg. pace - recovery + strides. Felt kinda sluggish but everytime I looked at my pace it was faster than expected - encouraging. The more I tried to slow down the quicker the pace. Figured out I'm in A corral.
Wednesday: 5 miles 43:01 - 8:36 avg. pace - 2x1000m @ 6:57 pace w/90 sec. recovery + strides. Feelin' good.
Thursday: 4 miles 34:44 - 8:41 avg. pace - recovery / easy + 2xstrides. Started blah, finished strong.
Friday: 4 miles 33:59 - 8:30 avg. pace - 2x2:00 @ 10k pace [6:55 pace] + stride. Best I've felt overall this week ~ legs were jumpin'!
Saturday: 6 miles 52:24 - 8:44 avg. pace - 6x400m @ 1:40-1:50 w/400m jog. Speed taper done.
Sunday: 17 miles Columbus Half Marathon [1:36:33] - New Master PB 

Week 43: 42 miles
Monday: SRD
Tuesday: 8 miles 1:10:28 - 8:48 avg. pace - easy. Felt like a pig out there. Still feeling my race.
Wednesday: 8 miles 1:07:55 - 8:29 avg. pace - easy.
Thursday: 10 miles 1:25:53 - 8:35 avg. pace - easy.
Friday: 5 miles 43:11 - 8:43 avg. pace - 2x2:00 @ 6:43 pace w/1:00 recovery jog + strides. Better.
Saturday: 6 miles 53:19 - 8:53 avg. pace - 5x400m @ 7:24 - 6:44 pace w/400m jog. Legs were on fire!
Sunday: 5 miles. baby jogger 5k [23:14]

Week 44: 51 miles
Monday: SRD
Tuesday: 8 miles 4x4 minutes @ 9.0 mph w/90 second recovery then launched immediately into 200m @ 10.0-10.5 mph + 4x200m @ 11.0 mph w/600m recovery / XT [leg extensions / reverse leg press]
Wednesday: 5 miles 42:50 - 8:34 avg. pace - moderate. Kinda gassed from yesterday's speedwork.
Thursday: 10 miles 1:19:58 - 7:59 avg. pace - moderate. Not sure what got into me but tomorrow better be an easy run!
Friday: 8 miles 1:09:49 - 8:43 avg. pace - easy
Saturday: 10 miles 1:27:48 - 8:46 avg. pace - 14x400m @ 1:38 [6:32 pace] w/75 sec. recovery jog.
Sunday: 10 miles 1:23:20 - 8:20 avg. pace - easy w/surges

Week 45: 50 miles
Monday: SRD
Tuesday: 10 miles 1:27:28 - 8:43 avg. pace - super easy.
Wednesday: 5 miles 2 sets 400m @ 9.0 mph / 800m @ 8.5 mph / 400m @ 9.0 mph continuous w/2:20 passive recovery + XT. Not feeling well [food poisoning] entire workout kinda blew.
Thursday: 7 miles 1:00:05 - 8:35 avg. pace - easy. Almost feeling back to normal.Plenty of pep but not a lot of stamina.
Friday: 8 miles 1:12:42 - 9:05 avg. pace - weak.
Saturday: 6 miles including baby jogger 5k [22:57] A.M. / 4 miles 34:25 - 8:36 avg. pace - easy P.M.
Sunday: 10 miles 1:28:40 - 8:52 avg. pace - easy

Week 46: 51 miles
Monday: SRD
Tuesday: Tuesday: 6 miles 2200m @ 9.0 mph & last 200m @ 10.3 mph. Passive recovery / jog + 2x200m @ 10.5 mph TM + XT [butt kick / pawing / high knees]. 2000-3000m @ 6:40 - scheduled
Wednesday: 3 miles 4.5 mph P.M. / 8 miles 1:05:35 - 8:12 avg. pace - easy P.M. Awesome 2nd run in the cool 40° air. Felt like I was flying while holding myself back!Thursday: 4 miles 33:29 - 8:21 avg. pace - 2x2:00 @ 6:26 pace + 2xstrides. Meh.
Friday: 4 miles 33:48 - 8:27 avg. pace - 5x400m 1:40 - 1:48 w/400m recovery.
Saturday: 8 miles including 5k [21:11] A.M. / 6 miles 55:42 - 9:17 avg. pace - recovery P.M. Legs were dead!
Sunday: 12 miles 1:48:31 - 9:02 avg. pace - very easy

Week 47: 56 miles
Monday: SRD
Tuesday: 7 miles 1:01:30 - 8:47 avg. pace - 3x1000m @ 6:57 pace w/60 second recovery jog + 3x200m hill sprints @ 5:29 pace. Meh. Legs still feelin' my race.
Wednesday: 14 miles 2:02:17 - 8:44 avg. pace - general aerobic
Thursday: 10 miles 1:32:00 - 9:12 avg. pace - very easy.
Friday: 6 miles 2000m @ 9.0 mph w/1:20 recovery 3x1000m @ 9.0 mph w/1:15 recovery w/200m sprint @ 10.4 mph + XT leg extensions & reverse leg press, butt kicks & pawing.
Saturday: 8 miles 1:06:00 - 8:12 avg. pace - moderate. Feeling good so I just went with it.
Sunday: 12 miles 1:51:00 - 9:14 avg. pace - general aerobic. Productive run, mapped out a new route for our 5k race.

Week 48: 60 miles
Monday: SRD
Tuesday: 7 miles 1:02:18 - 8:54 avg. pace 2000m @ 7:04 pace + 2x200m hill sprints. Felt as if I was moving much faster than the watch proved!
Wednesday: 10 miles 1:31:50 - 9:11 avg. pace - recovery [pace-wise].
Thursday: 4 miles 38:31 - 9:37 avg. pace - 2x2:00 @ 6:46 pace + 3xstrides. Meh.
Friday: 5 miles 45:30 - 9:06 avg. pace - 5x400m @ 1:35 - 1:50 w/400m jog + 2xstrides @ 5:06 pace. Moocho better than yesterday. Jingle Bell 5k tomorrow.
Saturday: 7 miles 1:02:23 - 8:47 avg. pace - includes 5k [21:23] A.M. / 11 miles 1:42:18 - 9:18 avg. pace - easy P.M.
Sunday: 10 miles 1:35:25 - 9:32 avg. pace - easy A.M. / 6 miles 54:30 - 9:05 avg. pace - easy P.M.

Week 49: 70 miles ***** BEGIN OFF SEASON XT *****
Monday: SRD
Tuesday: 10 miles 1:31:09 - 9:06 avg. pace - easy
Wednesday: 8 miles 1:05:40 - 8:12 avg. pace - moderate A.M. Couple of sub-7:30 miles feelin' good. / 2 miles + strides 9.0 - 10.0 mph / XT P.M. reverse leg press 3x110 lbs / theroband high knees / butt kicks / recumbent bike - 10:00 lvl 10 / form drills
Thursday: 10 miles 1:22:00 - 8:12 avg. pace - easy. The XT yesterday seemed to have a positive effect on my stride length.
Friday: 14 miles 2:05:47 - 8:59 avg. pace - general aerobic
Saturday: 10 miles 1:35:48 - 9:34 avg. pace - recovery [pace] A.M. / 6 miles 52:30 - 8:45 avg. pace - easy P.M.
Sunday: 10 miles 1:33:50 - 9:23 avg. pace - easy


... And back in the Fall of 2009 I ran this 5k [to support a co-worker's XC team] after running 26 miles the previous day. Obviously not a goal race or a recommended taper but ironically this 5k was only 10 seconds slower than the fastest 5k I ran that year [a couple of weeks later]. My focus that Fall was on the marathon, not the 5k.

Week 47: 94 miles
Monday: SRD
Tuesday: 8 miles
Wednesday: 10 miles A.M. / 8 miles P.M.
Thursday: 6 miles 6xstrides 9.5-11.6 mph TM
Friday: 14 miles A.M. / 6 miles 4xstrides 9.5-11 mph A.M. TM / 6 miles P.M. TM
Saturday: 8 miles 5k [21:13] A.M. / 10 miles P.M. TM
Sunday: 10 miles A.M. / 8 miles fartlek P.M.

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Re: Master Runner seeks Sub-20 5k - tweaked speedwork

Post by Tinman » Sat Jan 26, 2013 12:26 am

It seems to me that you're not really looking for advice on how to train better. Rather I guess you just would like to share what you been doing for training with other runners. That's okay. No problem! I think we believed that wanted our help when in fact to really just for thrilled about your running progress and then you were glad to share with us again. That's just fine thanks for sharing.
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Re: Master Runner seeks Sub-20 5k - tweaked speedwork

Post by MothAudio » Sat Jan 26, 2013 9:27 am

As I mentioned in my OP and a couple of times in my follow up replies, I welcome feedback. And while my running has been successful overall I haven't been able to accomplish this one goal; sub-20 5k since I last turned the trick in 1995. Obviously, I'm not getting any younger and if I hope to realize it I need to make some changes rather than repeat the same type of training I've been doing for the past 3-4 years.

And that's what I've done; I've explored high mileage and build a strong aerobic base, flirted with tweaking speedwork, bumped up my aerobic threshold and been successfully in the half marathon and marathon. And while I've been able to improve my 5k times by 1 1/2 minutes I'm still short of my mark. All of my races up to the half marathon line up according to the calculators. There isn't anything "wrong" about my 5k times, therefore I need to consider more fundamantal changes in the way I train if I hope to make this happen. So, yeah I'm pushing the envelope. I've given this most recent training schedule consideration but was looking for a fresh perspective, which all of you [among others] have provided. Just because I haven't immediately thrown the schedule in the trash doesn't mean I'm not listening to what everyone has to say.

I've been asked direct questions regarding my training, races and recovery in-between. In my last post, and previous replies, I've attempted to answer those inquiries. I'm not advocating anyone adopt my training model, I'm just replying to questions while sharing my profile since I'm new and the readership is unfamilar with my background. If I'd already accomplished my goal and came here to boost about my training methods I could see your point but that's not the case. I made it quite clear that I came here still seeking what I hope to find. 

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Re: Master Runner seeks Sub-20 5k - tweaked speedwork

Post by Tinman » Sat Jan 26, 2013 12:09 pm

Moth,

All due respect, it seems to me that you haven't accepted feedback from other people who provided it. That's why I conclude that you just feel like sharing your training accomplishments with others, and that's really all you want to do. If you truly want feedback, you must accept it instead of reject it. Several valid points have been made, which you have rejected right away.

Again, it's totally fine to share your running training; that's actually what this particular tab (Training Talk) is for. This tab is not for advice anyway.

Have a good day!

Tinman
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Re: Master Runner seeks Sub-20 5k - tweaked speedwork

Post by dkggpeters » Sat Jan 26, 2013 12:40 pm

Moth,

A comment was made about Kevin Miller and you stated that you didn't know about him so discounted him.  He is a 15 minute 5k runner in his 50's just as you are.  It was stated that you are doing more work then him.  What else do you need to know?  Tinman coaches Kevin and knows how to make people faster.

MothAudio

Re: Master Runner seeks Sub-20 5k - tweaked speedwork

Post by MothAudio » Sat Jan 26, 2013 1:00 pm

[quote="Tinman"]
Moth,

All due respect, it seems to me that you haven't accepted feedback from other people who provided it. That's why I conclude that you just feel like sharing your training accomplishments with others, and that's really all you want to do. If you truly want feedback, you must accept it instead of reject it. Several valid points have been made, which you have rejected right away.

Again, it's totally fine to share your running training; that's actually what this particular tab (Training Talk) is for. This tab is not for advice anyway.

Have a good day!

Tinman
[/quote]

If I posted in the incorrect forum I apologize. I think some feel that by simply responding to questions and providing feedback somehow that equates to "rejection". I'm reading what's wrote and comparing notes to what has worked for me over the years.

You asked me a specific question earlier, to which I replied but you have yet to comment. Do you feel my rate of recovery meet your criteria for training too hard?
Last edited by MothAudio on Sat Jan 26, 2013 1:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

MothAudio

Re: Master Runner seeks Sub-20 5k - tweaked speedwork

Post by MothAudio » Sat Jan 26, 2013 1:10 pm

[quote="dkggpeters"]
Moth,

A comment was made about Kevin Miller and you stated that you didn't know about him so discounted him.  He is a 15 minute 5k runner in his 50's just as you are.  It was stated that you are doing more work then him.  What else do you need to know?  Tinman coaches Kevin and knows how to make people faster.
[/quote]

That's not what I said. I said, "I don't like to compare and comment on other runner's training and schedules when I  know little to nothing about their background.". "Since I'm unfamiliar with the athlete it would be inappropriate to comment on the brief outline or the results based on it."

It would be foolish for me to comment on the success of a runner or to what degree their training was responsible for their success w/o 1st having the proper background info [besides the fact they're a fellow master runner]. Never did I say anything about his success or the methods he used, instead I did exactly the opposite by choosing not to comment. I've been careful to limit my comments to what I'm doing or what I've done in the past, and not on the validity of other training models mentioned.
 

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Re: Master Runner seeks Sub-20 5k - tweaked speedwork

Post by Tinman » Sun Jan 27, 2013 11:13 am

Do you feel my rate of recovery meet your criteria for training too hard?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes!

Moreover, I think some of your 5km paced workouts are too hard (the reps are too long).

I recommend that you do more stamina conditioning, too, which entails CV and Threshold work. Take a look at your half-marathon time. You ran 1:36:33, which is equal to 21:01 for 5km. Your 5km time is not that fast, so the prep you did right before the half-marathon was better for you than the prep you used for your 5km races. Research from Washington University showed that masters runners tend to perform better when they use more threshold/stamina work than V.O2 max work, which jives with my experience as a long-time coach.

My suggestions, if you really want them:

1) Use 1000s and 1200s at 5km pace, not 2000s.

2) Be sure to always include CV and threshold paced training in your weekly schedule. It's vital to your success.

3) Avoid the trap of being obsessive about doing training that a younger person would do. Spread out your hardest workouts. Far too often masters runners burn out or blow up, especially when it comes to injuries, which are hard to get rid of when you are older, once you get them.

4) Modulate your training more. GO up and down with the amount and severity of "hard" training you do during cycles.

5) Periodize your training a bit more. Focus on one element of fitness for a period of say 3-6 weeks, while maintaining fitness in other areas. You don't have to do big workouts at the same intensity to maintain fitness in an area. Let's say you build up to 10 x 50m hill reps at a fast speed. You can move down to 5-7 reps and maintain your speed for about 6 weeks without losing speed. During that time you can focus on other forms of fitness.

Good luck!

Tinman
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