Page 1 of 1

Lactate Tolerance Workouts

Posted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 3:38 pm
by jb212
Are Lactate Tolerance workouts really necessary in every training program? Daniels doesn`t take this type of training into consideration. Why? Maybe, because of fact, that VO2max workout has some influence on "lactate buffering system"... Could speeds slightly above LT (like VO2), in Tinman terms-CV) have this same effect like Lac.Tolerance workout?
P.S Really sorry for my bad english...

Re: Lactate Tolerance Workouts

Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2013 8:02 am
by FTIR
I think it depends on the distances you are racing.

Re: Lactate Tolerance Workouts

Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2013 11:40 am
by Tinman
There is no such thing as lactate tolerance, only lactate use.

Re: Lactate Tolerance Workouts

Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2013 12:22 pm
by FTIR
So if there is only lactate use, then that is something that must be practiced no matter what distance you are racing.

Lactate use will be practiced at any speed at which lactate is produced.

Like most things that need to be practiced, there is a trade off between practicing harder and practicing more.

Re: Lactate Tolerance Workouts

Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2013 1:07 pm
by TexNav
Kind of reminds me of an article I was recently reading when Tom mentioned lactate use. 

http://triathlon.competitor.com/2013/07 ... ty_59521/2

I think the link above should take you to page 2 where the author states "When we train at an intensity just below our threshold, there is a very high influx of lactate being produced by the muscles and being metabolized and used as fuel".
Some other really good key points in the article.

A good number of forum members have done very well when using threshold type of workouts as staples. For example I think an old forum member (Mathwiz1?) used 5x1 mile / 90 sec rec. as a staple workout, and I believe essentially was either Tinman prescribed, or else stressed similarly to some of Tom's LT type of workouts (withholding examples to add a little care to "trade secrets").
But I was thinking Daniels does in fact integrate Threshold workouts into his training. Below is a link to one of Ron's workouts, which if I'm not mistaken, is right out of JD's books.
http://www.therunzone.com//viewtopic.php?t=1

The difference I believe though in the two approaches is that Tinman's reps tend to be a tad less lengthy when targeting similar ranges.
And Brad Hudson is a big believer in that range of training as well with some 2x15 min. workouts (though I think he favors a tad lengthier recovery, maybe due to the higher pace and intensity runners at his level of coaching are running), progressing to 3x15 min. with descending paces? (M, HM, 10K).  Not to say that it is the only pace or a magical pace, but certainly many have found great benefit from it. But I think I have read that it is a great cost to benefit range as it is within say about 10% of 5K pace which makes it more of a "specific endurance" pace, but obviously less stressful and more repeatable year roung (much like CV pace).

Anyways, just some thoughts (and any corrections too if I'm wrong) and would love to see what more might be added to the topic, always eager to learn more here.

Re: Lactate Tolerance Workouts

Posted: Sat Aug 31, 2013 10:53 am
by Tinman
This, posted above, is correct and well said:

"So if there is only lactate use, then that is something that must be practiced no matter what distance you are racing.

Lactate use will be practiced at any speed at which lactate is produced.

Like most things that need to be practiced, there is a trade off between practicing harder and practicing more."

However, if you push a high intensity for an extended period (let's say 1500m pace) during workouts, you shift the burning rate of carbohydrates to make it faster, thus it causes a problem for someone who wants to race long distances well. You BONK in a long race if you burn carbs too fast!

A trade off exists for everything. If you push your pace to VO2 max and beyond (faster than 3km pace), you increase the number of enzymes that function within and in conjunction with non-oxidative metabolism (anaerobic glycolysis), which makes rate production of ATP higher, but the trade-off is less of your available time and energy spent on making your aerobic (oxidative phosophorylation) more effective and efficient. If your goal race event is short (say under 5 minutes), then you may be willing to trade-off some aerobic efficiency for the ability to create ATP fast via non-oxidative metabolism and pure speed, which provides a "kick" at the start and end of a race. However, it's quite easy to overdo the non-oxidative capacity by running too much "speed-endurance" work (faster than 3km pace), the result of which is reduced aerobic efficiency. The result of this, if you are a middle distance runner is lots of easy speed and no stamina - the ability to hold a high fraction of your max VO2 (maximum aerobic power/capacity).  If you have followed by posts in the past or articles that I've written, you'll connect the dots now. So, you say, it's not bad to run speed-endurance workouts (faster than 3km pace), but there is a risk; too much of it, with a concordant decrease in time spent working on aerobic stamina and thus efficiency, creates speed and power but an inability to hold a strong pace throughout a mid-distance race? Yes, true! Thus, you gain speed but lost overall performance capacity. I see that with Kiprop, Manzano, and Centrowitz on the track right now. I've seen this cycle repeated often for Allan Webb, when he was training for and racing the 1500m/1-mile. They get fit from solid aerobic work, then they get faster with some race-pace or faster than race-pace work, and then they go too far away from aerobic stamina work and their speed no longer matters; they can't old a good pace in a race past about 90 seconds in a race and they get beat by runners that are not as talented as they are.