Lower mileage - but still effective?

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mathwiz1

Lower mileage - but still effective?

Post by mathwiz1 » Wed Oct 08, 2008 8:46 pm

The schedule that you had back in your prime years of running looks an aweful lot like what I would have prescribed for myself. The only exception being the 8-12 minutes at 5K + 50 sec per mile the day before the race. That is an interesting concept. Was the logic behind that day's training just geared toward the fact that this was an important pace to train at and that there just weren't enough days in the week to "do it all?"

Two years ago when I finished college running, using your guidance I did:

Sat - race 5k-10k distance
Sun- 10 very easy
Mon- 15 easy
Tues- 10 easy
Wed - 12, with 2.5 warmup, 5 miles at 5K +1 min/mile; 2 x 1 mile at CV, hard pickups, 2.5 miles easy
Thurs -10 easy
Fri - 10 very easy
Sat - race 5k-10k distance

I had a terrible XC season, ending it at the end of October, but with no mileage adjustment and just repeating the above schedule, I managed to run a 1/2 marathon in mid December at the same pace that I ran my last colliegate 8K XC race.

I am a huge fan of racing one's self into shape.

citius99

Lower mileage - but still effective?

Post by citius99 » Wed Oct 08, 2008 9:55 pm

Mathwiz, if you look at the earlier pages in this thread, you will find examples Tinman gave of why some moderate work the day before a race (instead of just running very easy) will be beneficial. I have found this the case too.

ThatGuy

Lower mileage - but still effective?

Post by ThatGuy » Fri Oct 10, 2008 6:57 am

Tinman, first time poster, long time reader. 51 year old male, 20:45 5K best. Should break that time in the next 2 weeks. Based on your philosophy I have been running the exact schedule you list when you were road racing. But I run 1 mile less on each of the days. For example Tuesday is 4-5 EZ. Plus I also run a 4 miler on Wednesday morning. I have tried to add another double day but haven't found a day that worked. What other day would you recommend or would you say get rid of the Wednesday morning 4 miler and go to more 3 milers in the AM? Or at my age and times, am I running too many miles? If this helps I think my body type is similar to yours. I had good 400 speed in HS but not great. Thanks.

Tinman
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Lower mileage - but still effective?

Post by Tinman » Sat Oct 11, 2008 12:36 am

ThatGuy -

I often suggest that runners try doing 2-mile morning runs, three days per week, when they first start "double-days." I know that doesn't seem like much, but runners often say they feel better in the afternoon workouts because of the 2-mile "shake-out" run. Give it a try for a couple of weeks and let us know how it worked for you. Take care, Tom
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ThatGuy

Lower mileage - but still effective?

Post by ThatGuy » Sat Oct 11, 2008 6:03 am

Sorry if I was wordy. I already double on my hard days - Saturday and Wednesday. I know from a previous thread you state that a person in my range could double 3x a week. Just wondering what the other day you'd recommend with a race most Saturdays? Thanks again.
Last edited by ThatGuy on Sat Oct 11, 2008 6:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

Tinman
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Lower mileage - but still effective?

Post by Tinman » Sat Oct 11, 2008 12:24 pm

TG -

Monday would be a good day to throw in one more double.

Regards,

Tom
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mathwiz1

Lower mileage - but still effective?

Post by mathwiz1 » Thu Oct 30, 2008 4:31 pm

Tinman,

I’ve been trying the rotation that you listed for the 17 flat 5k masters guy with reduced overall volume and more fitting times, but I really struggled yesterday on my hard run.

This is what I’m trying to implement:

Day 1: 8-9 miles slow (8:30 per mile)
Day 2: 1 mile easy, 25 minutes moderate (6:55 per mile), 1 mile easy
Day 3: 1 mile easy, 6 x 800 at CV pace, with 60 sec jogs, 4 x 100 quick, 1 mile easy

After 25 minutes of moderate work two days ago, my CV workout the next day really was not good, and I felt like I was pushing too hard overall, and my legs felt like they were made of Jello. I cut the workout short, stopping at five repeats instead of six, and the times were 3:04, 3:05, 3:04, 3:06, 3:08. The more telling story was how much more I had to push as this simple workout transpired. I’ve run 18:24 a few times this year, and ran one 18:01 on a day when everything clicked, but have struggled since. I really want to be able to reap benefits from the 3-day rotation.

I attempted to run a 5k this past weekend, and the goal was to run under 18 minutes. I hit the first mile way too fast (5:40) and immediately felt over-extended, so I told myself that I would go hard to the two mile marker, then just jog it in. I hit two miles at a measly 11:38….so I was pushing and couldn’t go much faster than 5:58, which is sad.

Sunday was 10 easy, Monday was 5 easy, Tuesday was the moderate 25 minutes at 6:55 pace, referenced above, and Wednesday was the pathetic CV workout. I’m slated for 8-9 miles this evening.

At this point, I can do one of two things:

A) Race myself into shape and forget about how pathetically I’m currently running

B) Train until I feel strong enough to run decent race times

I love this time of year and was looking forward to running fast this fall, but for some reason I just can’t get back into it. I literally could go to a race each weekend and time-trial myself back if I thought that it'd help. I am willing to put in the miles/work (and do!!)…that’s not the problem…I’m not sure what is. PR is 17 flat, and I once got there in 4 months time after having been stuck at 17:35 for 2+ years. I would like to see 16:xx on the clock one day. Can you help me?

Thanks.
Last edited by mathwiz1 on Thu Oct 30, 2008 4:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Tinman
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Lower mileage - but still effective?

Post by Tinman » Thu Oct 30, 2008 11:47 pm

mathwhiz1:

Try doing a 7-day routine!

The following is an example:

Mon: 30 minutes run - V.EZ

Tue: 60 minutes run -- including any one of the following CV paced workouts:
(a) 12 x 400m (jog 100m)
(b) 6 x 800m (jog 200m)
(c) 4 x 1200m (jog 300m)
(d) 3 x 1600m (jog 400m)

Conclude the CV workout with 3 x 150m fairly quick (jog 250m recoveries).

Wed: 30 minutes run - V.EZ

Thu: 45 minutes run - EZ; including 5 x 100m at about 2-mile pace/effort (jog
100m recoveries.

Fri: 60 minutes run - including 30 minutes at Tinman Tempo pace + quick striders or short hill charges (not sprints!) (run them at about 1 mile race effort).

Sat: 30 minutes run - V. EZ.

Sun: 80-90 minutes run - EZ (throw in a few 50-100m easy striders in the last 15 minutes to prevent stiffness in your legs.
-------------------------------
When you run a race, skip the Tinman Tempo on Friday, opting to do an easy run and easy striders.

Take care,

Tinman




Just do 1 longer run (easy pace, mostly), 1 CV workout 6-7 x 800m (jog 200m recoveries) + 3 x 200m at about 1 mile race effort (jog 200m recoveries).
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Barricade

Lower mileage - but still effective?

Post by Barricade » Sat Feb 14, 2009 2:07 pm

Hey guys, sorry to bring up an old topic, but I wanted to share my experience so far with the 3-day rotation and ask a question.

Started 3 day rotation with 4 miles each day
Day 1: 4 miles EZ
Day 2: 4 miles Moderate
Day 3: 4 miles Fast Tempo - Stamina Pace

After 2 weeks of this, I ran a 5k in 18:16 in early Nov.

Kept up the 3 day rotation sometimes substituting my EZ day with the elliptical/bike/pool running...eventually hitting 7 miles a day by mid-December

Day 1: 7 miles EZ
Day 2: 7 miles total with 6 miles at Moderate pace (eventually reduced to 4.5 miles at Slow tempo pace)
Day 3: 7 miles, including 5 miles at Fast Tempo-Stamina Pace.

***However, 6 miles at a moderate pace tired me out too much so I reduced it to 4.5 miles at slow tempo pace instead.


Around late January, I moved up to 8 miles a day (60 mins of running) and switched my schedule around to CV reps instead of stamina pace

Day 1: 5 miles EZ + 25 mins on the elliptical or 65 mins on the elliptical (always done in 2 sessions)
Day 2: 8 miles, including 4.5 miles at Slow tempo
Day 3: 8.5-9 miles, including 5 x 1 km at CV pace (2 min job in between) + 4 x 30 sec hill charges at the end.

Every 4th rotation, I would replace the CV workout with the 5 miles at Stamina Pace. So currently, its CV, CV, CV, and then stamina for every 4 rotations.

I just ran a 5k this morning on almost the same course I ran 3 months ago and busted out a 17:16 (1 min drop in 3 months). Clearly, this 3 day rotation is working out well for me. I was wondering however, now that Im getting into 5k racing season, should I step out of the 3 day rotation and try the 7 day rotation?

I was thinking about doing another 4 sessions of my current rotation and then entering into this training:

Rotation 1:
Day 1: 5 x 1k at 5k pace with 2 min recovery in between. 6 x 30 sec hill charges at the end. 9-10 miles total.
Day 2: 6 miles EZ or 45 mins on the elliptical
Day 3: 8 miles EZ
Day 4: 9 miles including 5 miles at Stamina-Fast tempo pace and 4 x 200m @ 1 mi pace reps at the end.
Day 5: 6 miles EZ or 45 mins on the elliptical
Day 6: 11 miles EZ
Day 7: 6 miles EZ

Rotation 2:
Same as Rotation 1, but replace Day 1 with 5 x 1k at CV pace with 1:45 min recovery in between reps + 6 x 30 sec hill charges.

So In essence, I would be rotating 5k pace/tempo/long run and CV/tempo/long run every 2 weeks. Is this better for reaching my race potential or should I stick with my current 3-day rotation (CV, CV, CV, stamina/fast tempo)?

Thanks guys.

Tinman
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Lower mileage - but still effective?

Post by Tinman » Sat Feb 14, 2009 5:00 pm

Barricade -

The suggested 7-day rotation, altered for a 2-week cycle is perfectly fine. My suggestion, though, is add 1 long run per 14-day cycle. The pace can be quite easy. I think the added endurance from the long run will ensure you continue to make progress throughout the racing season. Otherwise, everything is fine.

Good luck!

Tinman
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Barricade

Lower mileage - but still effective?

Post by Barricade » Sat Feb 14, 2009 5:57 pm

[QUOTE=Tinman;7082]Barricade -

The suggested 7-day rotation, altered for a 2-week cycle is perfectly fine. My suggestion, though, is add 1 long run per 14-day cycle. The pace can be quite easy. I think the added endurance from the long run will ensure you continue to make progress throughout the racing season. Otherwise, everything is fine.

Good luck!

Tinman[/QUOTE]

The 11 miles EZ in the 7-day rotation counts as a long run for me. Is it better to do a long run every week or every other week? I am racing short distances, mainly 5ks.

Thanks.

mathwiz1

Lower mileage - but still effective?

Post by mathwiz1 » Sat Feb 14, 2009 10:40 pm

B-

I'm interested in knowing whether or not you increased the paces as the weeks between November and January passed, or if you kept the paces constant? Did you instead go by effort?

Barricade

Lower mileage - but still effective?

Post by Barricade » Sat Feb 14, 2009 11:11 pm

[QUOTE=mathwiz1;7086]B-

I'm interested in knowing whether or not you increased the paces as the weeks between November and January passed, or if you kept the paces constant? Did you instead go by effort?[/QUOTE]

Yes, I did increase the paces as the weeks went by. Since I ran a 5k race early on, I had a decent grasp of what kind of shape I was in and what paces I should shoot for. However, once I ran the rotation a few times, I pretty much was able to zone in on the effort and focus more on that than the pace (though I did check to make sure my paces were in the right range from time to time during the run).

It started out something like this:

EZ: 8:00 min/mi
Moderate: 7:15 min/mi
Fast: 6:45 min/mi

After a few rotations, it was then 7:50, 7:10, 6:25. A month later, probably 7:45, 7:00, 6:20 (late December).

Now, Im at around 7:35, 6:40-45 (slow tempo, not moderate), 6:10ish for my rotations.

Basically, go by effort. But in general, if you're adapting well to your training, i think you can increase the pace of each run by one second/mile each week.

Hope that helps.

By the way, how's your running going now MathWiz?

mathwiz1

Lower mileage - but still effective?

Post by mathwiz1 » Sat Feb 14, 2009 11:36 pm

First, congratulations of the improvements!!!

My running seems to be going better now, but I haven't raced to access current fitness.

In late November and early December, I was running 4 one mile repeats at around 6:26 pace (stamina pace), with hills at the end, one fartlek, and one 2-hour run. At that time, I was around 18:15 for the 5k.

I spent the last 6 weeks doing the following:

Sun- easy 6
M- 3 miles @ TT w/ 1 mi for warmup and one for cool down (7:10 pace for the 1st, 7:00 for the 2nd, 6:50 for the 3rd)
T- 3 x 1 mile at 6:25, 1 warm up and 1 cool down
W- easy
Th- same as Monday
F - 1 mi wu, 5 x 1/2 mile at CV pace (6:10/mile pace), 1 cool down
Sa- 12 very easy

(5k paced striders after medium runs, 1 mile pace striders after harder runs)

REPEAT!!

The earlier efforts were:

Easy - as easy as I feel....10 min/mile sometimes
Med - 7:00 pace, but first was usually around 7:15, and last around 6:50
"hard" - 6:25 for stamina pace (mile reps), and 6:10 for CV (1/2 mile reps)

Now I am:

Easy - same
Med - 7:00 1st mile, 6:50 2nd mile, 6:45 third
Hard - mile reps @ 6:16 pace, 1/2 miles at 6:00 pace

This past week, I ran got out of my routine and did a standard 7-day plan as follows:

Sun - same 6 miler
M- 5 easy
T - 4 one mile repeats at 6:17, 6:15, 6:08, 6:07 and felt great, 1 mile warm up and 1 mile cool down
W - 5 easy
Th - 5 @ 6:48 pace, 1 up and 1 down.
F - 5 easy
Sa - 12 -- unplanned progressive run--first few miles around 9:00 pace, and the last 7 were anywhere from 7:30 to 6:15 pace....felt great and finished the last half mile around 5:30 pace. I have a Garmin.

(5k paced striders after medium runs, 1 mile pace striders after harder runs)

I'm due for a race or a time trial, and I'm tempted to go back to the 3-day rotations after hearing your results. I, too, use effort first and pace as a secondary benchmark.

citius99

Lower mileage - but still effective?

Post by citius99 » Tue Apr 14, 2009 6:55 pm

I've been reviewing this thread recently and have to say it's very insightful. Tinman, I'm especially ispired by the performances you put up on just 5 miles a day (4:01 1500!!!). Another thread I've been looking at is the moderate paces thread, and similarly find the lack of speed work, but consistentcy day in day out, interesting. I was thinking of combining the two approaches:

Every day run 5 miles at a moderate to strong effort. For me, this would usually be around 6 minutes per mile (I raced 5k in 15:38 recently). A couple times a week, this will progress to a faster finish and REALLY FAST last 400m or so.

once a week, I also play an intense game of intramural ultimate frisbee with some of my friends for ~90 minutes (7:00-8:30 at night). I play these games pretty hard, plus they're loads of fun, so I think I'm getting in some good speed work.

two or three times a week, I'll try and do a weightlifting circuit for 20-30 minutes after my run (maybe a few hours after for recovery).

In addition, I bike to and from school (3 miles each way), so I think I'm getting in a pretty good training load, and seeing how I mainly want to improve my 1500-mile time, I think this approach will be helpful (My performances seem to be the best when the majority of my training involves a somewhat strong and fluid stride, thus the daily moderate runs, if I run too slow, then my stride gets chopped and knee lift is drastically reduced, which becomes reflected in my races.)

Thoughts?

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