Vigil Training

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Jeff_D
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Vigil Training

Post by Jeff_D » Sun Jan 05, 2014 5:03 pm

On Facebook I saw that Fernando Cabada, a new athlete of Joe Vigil, had posted his training and I thought I would share and see what others thought of it. For reference, Cabada is a 62 minute half marathon PR and usually trains around 6000 ft. He recently won a 5k in the 13:50s indoors.

What is most striking to me is how slowly he runs on his easy days. A take-away for all runners - have the confidence to run slowly on your easy days so that you can adapt & recover from your workouts.

December 23rd-29th
Monday- recovery 8 miles (1:02:30)
Tuesday-20x200 w/2:00rest @29 avg.
Wednesday- 11 miles (1:22:15)
Thursday- AM 7 miles easy PM 6x800 w/2:00R avg. 2:10
Friday- AM 10.5 miles (1:19)
Saturday- recovery 4.5 miles
Sunday- 18 mile long run (1:53:00)

75 miles for the week

December 30th-January 5th
Monday- AM 8 miles (57:00) PM 4 miles (29:00)
Tuesday- AM 8x1km w/2:00R @2:47 avg. PM 4 miles easy
Wednesday- Recovery 8 miles (1:02:45)
Thursday- AM 4 mile tempo (18:30) PM 4 miles (30:30) at sea level
Friday- Recovery AM 8 miles (1:02:45) PM 4 miles (32:10)
Saturday- 10 mile aerobic threshold (49:53) sea level
Sunday- Recovery 7 miles (51:22)

80 miles for the week

wuxcalum
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Re: Vigil Training

Post by wuxcalum » Wed Jan 08, 2014 12:31 pm

Do you have a link to the training log?

Thanks!

Jimmy

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Re: Vigil Training

Post by dkggpeters » Wed Jan 08, 2014 1:25 pm

Jeff,

I have had a lot of interesting discussions with a local masters runner (44) whom has turned a lot of 2:32 to 2:36 marathons (I do mean a lot) about running really easy on easy days.  He continually tells me that he is not afraid to walk jog on some days and his easy runs are really slow.  To put it in perspective, last weekend we did a 15 miler and I did mine in 2:03 which was about an 8:10 pace while he ran his in 2:30.  My PR is 2:47 vs his 2:32.

I still have a hard time getting it into my thick skull that yes I can run really easy on slow on certain days.  I am getting better at it but still continue to work at it. 

Dave

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Re: Vigil Training

Post by qrkid » Wed Jan 08, 2014 11:29 pm

[quote="dkggpeters"]
Jeff,

I have had a lot of interesting discussions with a local masters runner (44) whom has turned a lot of 2:32 to 2:36 marathons (I do mean a lot) about running really easy on easy days.  He continually tells me that he is not afraid to walk jog on some days and his easy runs are really slow.  To put it in perspective, last weekend we did a 15 miler and I did mine in 2:03 which was about an 8:10 pace while he ran his in 2:30.  My PR is 2:47 vs his 2:32.

I still have a hard time getting it into my thick skull that yes I can run really easy on slow on certain days.  I am getting better at it but still continue to work at it. 

Dave
[/quote]


LOL I think they should do a study because the older we get and the more wisdom we gather I think  our skull gets thicker. My longer runs (I am 43) end up with the last 4 or 5 mi going into the 6:40's and as I type this I have not run in 9 days because I am hurt again. I do hope I can get it into my very thick skull that I need to get myself to go SLOW on easy days some day before I die.

Schebo
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Re: Vigil Training

Post by Schebo » Thu Jan 09, 2014 4:26 am

Well, it was when Mo Farah speeded up his easy days from 7 min/mile to 5,30/mile he got his big breakthrough.

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Re: Vigil Training

Post by FTIR » Thu Jan 09, 2014 9:47 am

A few years back Tinman wrote:

http://www.therunzone.com//viewtopic.php?t=5

"I have coached two runners who prospered on the all-moderate approach, but I found the only way to prevent them from going "into the tank" was making them run slowly twice per week. If they ran an extra minute per mile slower on those two days, or if the days were cut to 50-60% of normal distance, at the normal pace, they did fine. The big problem to avoid is racing and still doing moderate paced runs every day. It catches up with you in a hurry. I recommend taking the day off, after a race; if you intend to run races and run moderate paced runs every day. And, I still think performing two slow runs per week, or at least cutting the volume of those runs by 40-50%, is necessary - to prevent going into the tank."

Are we sure Mo didn't do anything differently to allow him to recover from the faster easy days?

Last month Tinman was looking for topics for an E-book.  In the same thread he wrote:

"When I am not so darn busy, I'll write an article about use of moderate paced training, which is an art that requires insight/experience to make it work. If training tips are passed-on from people who have used the method, or who have coached runners who used the method, you might succeed in short-time. Note I have used it myself a couple of times, and I was fairly successful at it one of the times, when I applied some of the tips I will present in the article. Again, I don't know when I can write the article; my job, family, runners, and this website keep me quite busy - on the edge of the abyss, so to speak, at times."

I know I would be interested in this topic.

Captainblood
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Re: Vigil Training

Post by Captainblood » Thu Jan 09, 2014 10:00 am

Sorry to hear that, qrkid.  I am 43 as well.  And I am constantly reminded that running is a sport that is largely between the ears.  I was on a 10 mile recovery run a month back and after 4 miles my left foot started bothering me.  A little ache -- but it was there.  In my infinite wisdom I thought I would just run as gingerly as I could like a little ballerina and it would be fine.

The next morning I woke up and I couldn't walk without pain.  I took the day off and cross trained for a few days and it was back to normal.  But I was kicking myself for the initial mistake.  I didn't compound the mistake by trying to train through it.  But stupidly running those 6 miles cost me 4 days of training and a few more days of easing back into it.  Basically a week of nothing and fluff.  I constantly have to remind myself to "run smart."

What helped me run easy on easier days is that I realized that the easier pace IS the best pace for my development.  Ten miles at 8:00 pace is better for me than ten at 7:30.  More time on my feet.  More time in my target heart rate zone.  Better recovery so I have the strength and energy to nail my next key workout.  I have to check my ego at the door and run smart.  I got away with running like an idiot when I was younger, but mistakes now do catch up with me.

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Re: Vigil Training

Post by runthe8 » Thu Jan 09, 2014 11:30 am

[quote="Captainblood"]
In my infinite wisdom I thought I would just run as gingerly as I could like a little ballerina and it would be fine.
[/quote]

Well, I laughed out loud at this!  Mainly because I was tempted to do the same dumb thing in my first indoor track meet of the season.  I ran the mile in an OK time of 5:37, it felt good and quite easy, except for a little nagging heel pain in my chronically injured left foot that has plantar fasciitis. I had hoped to run the 400 after the mile, and limped around, trying to warm up, thinking, it's only a 400!!  How much damage can you do in 60 some seconds? I won't even be hitting my heel as I'm sprinting, I'll run gingerly,  etc etc.  Finally I called my husband and he told me NOT to run.  Despite the fact I heeded his advice and didn't run, I haven't been able to do a good run since; instead I'm bouncing around on my mini-trampoline in the basement...sigh. 

Tinman
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Re: Vigil Training

Post by Tinman » Thu Jan 09, 2014 4:08 pm

#1) Mo Farah has genetic advantages that most people do not.

#2) How many average Joe or Jane runners get multiple massages per week, and other therapies to help them recover faster?

#3) 5:30 per mile is about 68% of VO2 max for Farah, which isn't hard. And, I doubt he runs ALL his easy runs at that pace. (I remember, back in the 1980s, an article from GB stated Dave Moorcroft ran his easy days at 5:30 per mile, and another article said that Steve Cram ran his easy days at 5:00 per mile. Neither were true. Moorcroft later said that he didn't even run with is club mates at Coventry because they ran too fast on easy days, and he was the world record holder at 5,000m in 13:00.41, a miler in 3:49 and change, etc. Cram later said that he ran 2-3 times per week, 5 miles at 5:00 pace to improve his aerobic threshold. Otherwise he ran 5:30 to 6:00 per mile. One article said that John Walker ran 5:00 per mile often during his marathon (base) conditioning. He later was quoted as saying once a week he ran 10 miler at 5:00  per mile. Most of his runs ranged from 5:30 to 6:30 per mile. Note to all the average Joe and Jane runners out there, 5:30 pace is not at all hard for someone who runs at the world class level. It's like an 18:00 runner training at 7:22 per mile. And, the difference is that the world class runner has a huge genetic advantage of being able to recover about twice as fast from an easy run at the same effort.)

4) When coaches like Dr. Joe Vigil, who has coached 50 years plus, are not slowing down runners on easy days, I'd say that the rest of the running public should start paying attention. He used to push fast distance runs all the time, back in the 1980s and 1990s, but he's learning. Coach Vigil is still learning and growing more capable, despite his incredible record of accomplishment, at age 82. As I stated before, I used to live in Eugene, Oregon. I lived a 2 minute jog from Alton Baker Park, where Pre's trail is, and I was 5 minutes jog to the Willamette Bike Trail. I used to see the top Kenyans and Ethiopians come into town as early as Sunday or Monday, when the Prefontaine Track & Field Classic would soon follow (5-6 days later). Those guys would be out jogging for 90 minutes on the trails at about 8:00 to 7:00 per mile. Actually, if you saw them jog the first lap (about 4 miles around), it looked like they were running 9:00 per mile. I'd see that for a couple of days, and then I'd go over to the Eugen Running Company store to visit and one the people working there - like Brad Hudson - would tell me about some fast workout those guys did on the track. Yet, when I went home and punched in the numbers, other than the quick 200s they tacked on the end of their workout. They were not running that fast. 5 x 1000m in 2:40 (shuffle-jog 200 between reps) is not that hard for those guys! 5 x 200s in 29-28 seconds with a 200 jog is not that hard for those guys. Then, Thursday morning, and around 5 pm again, I'd see them out jogging for an hour or so. Meanwhile, I'd see some white guys who are not as fast on the track hammering away at 5:15 pace on their distance runs. Who ran faster on race-day? Who was wiser in their training practices?
Tinman
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blon
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Re: Vigil Training

Post by blon » Thu Jan 09, 2014 8:18 pm

[quote="Tinman"]
#3) 5:30 per mile is about 68% of VO2 max for Farah, which isn't hard. And, I doubt he runs ALL his easy runs at that pace.
[/quote]

Salazar says that Farah and Rupp run about 5:40/mile on normal easy runs. If really tired they run 6:00/mile.

Nice videos of Salazar explaining his view on the subject:

http://www.runnerspace.com/eprofile.php ... o_id=77612
http://www.runnerspace.com/eprofile.php ... o_id=77613
Last edited by blon on Thu Jan 09, 2014 8:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Vigil Training

Post by BoilerTom90 » Thu Jan 09, 2014 10:42 pm

[quote="blon"]
[quote="Tinman"]
#3) 5:30 per mile is about 68% of VO2 max for Farah, which isn't hard. And, I doubt he runs ALL his easy runs at that pace.
[/quote]

Salazar says that Farah and Rupp run about 5:40/mile on normal easy runs. If really tired they run 6:00/mile.

Nice videos of Salazar explaining his view on the subject:

http://www.runnerspace.com/eprofile.php ... o_id=77612
http://www.runnerspace.com/eprofile.php ... o_id=77613
[/quote]

It's quite humbling when you sit back and think about that.

A friend of mine use to run with a group in Chicago. One night they had a special guest show up to run with them, Jorge Torres. My friend said some of the guys tried to really impress Jorge up with their fast paced training run (race effort). But to Jorge it was an easy day, a recovery run actually since he had done a hard workout in the morning, and they still couldn't make him work. It puts it all in perspective just how good the elites are.

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